It shows it as real-time, but it is not always. I have listened to LiveATC of my local tower while at the airport and also listening on a handheld, and the two don’t always match up 100%. LiveATC also often only captures part of the conversation - it’s quite common to not hear a pilot’s response.
I hear a lot of discussion about ground clutter lights, cars, buildings, etc. We’ve all seen the video of the crash, and even from that distance the landing lights of the CRJ are quite prominent compared to background lights. Since the Blackhawk was heading south, and the CRJ north, then northwest, they were converging roughly head-on. Those landing lights should have been quite apparent. A speed-talking controller combined with check flight distraction will probably be the focus. My understanding is there is a 200 foot ceiling for military helis over the Patomac, and the CRJ was at 400 ft agl. This may also be a factor.
I only know one thing about this, and that will be the end of military training flights in Washington airspace
Based on the helicopter chart, that is correct - at or below 200 feet for helicopters on Route 1 and 4 (or at 1500 feet on Route 6 when crossing over KDCA). Of course, ATC can authorize a different altitude.
IOf I listened correctly and mayby I didn’t, but tower told teh helo anout the CRJ. Copter says they see it and would like visual. Tower says pass behind the CRJ. And then for some reason, lights probably or crew distraction they instead ran into it. A simple a common procedure used constantly at DCA and most airports everywhere. Humans make mistakes. That’s it. Oh, very similar to the PSA that ran into the C172 going into SAN Sept. '78. I see him. Maintain visual. Then lost him and didn’t say anything. The system isn’t perfect (humans involved) but so damn close to it figuring the complexity and massive volume. From 55 year pilot and 38 year controller including L.A. area and ORD.
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Perhaps this could have been avoided if the Blackhawk had ADS-B on board (and turned on). I realize that “see and avoid” is best done by keeping our eyes outside the cockpit. That being said, ADS-B traffic on my iPad and GTN 750 guides me on where to look. It’s quite accurate at depicting aircraft location and movement. Military aircraft are supposed to have ADS-B by now. However, from personal experience, the F-16s that frequently train around the airport I fly out of do not come up on my screens as the civilian traffic does. Either they do not have ADS-B yet, or they have it turned off. I have noticed this also when flying through MOAs. This needs to be looked at by the NTSB in this crash. Did they have ADS-B on board AND were they using it? My condolences to the families and friends who lost their loved ones.
The chart seems to authorize 1000 ft just north of Reagan Nat’l., and the heli was coming from the north. The video seems to show the heli was flying relatively level, not descending to 200 ft. I would comment that the altitude restriction going from 1000 ft to 200 ft seems rather abrupt. Not a huge feat for a heli, but for the pilot some awareness and forethought would be required.
Didn’t the CRJ have TCAS?
Yeah, I meant to say that the altitude charted is “at or below 200” in the vicinity of KDCA.
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“”" Not as easy as you beleive “”"
You have no idea what others believe…
Advice: Stay teachable.
Let’s take a moment first to remember all that perished in this tragic accident. It is easy to say “this should not have happened”, but it did and I certainly hope the focus is 100% on how this happened.
I do want to comment on a couple of things…All of use as pilots, imagine what the cockpit of the CRJ would have been moment before getting hit; they have been cleared to land on R33, they are configured, at 400 ft easy to state the plane is configured to land, they are mostly focused on either instruments, the visual of the runway since they are within 1 min or less of landing. If they even heard the ATC call out to the Helo their situational awareness may not have registered as there were other CRJs in the system. If the Helo had TCAS or ADSI off then nothing would have warned them because in their minds, they had control of Final and who would enter that.
Let us not even consider putting blame on this crew whether it was fast talking ATC (FFS have you listened to Kennedy), or night flying as I am sure they were use to flying at night.
Some here made a uncited statement that the Blackhawk pilots were/may have been wearing NVGs…Why? Why say that without any proof, because as I understand NVGs, any bright light would have rendered them useless and the very bring lights of an airliner would be like looking at the sun way before getting close.
Some here seem to want to point a finger at ATC; because they talk fast, because the recording was not good so they assume that is what the pilots heard…really? I listened to ATC before and after. Nothing, Nothing indicated they gave incorrect commands or through any inattention set up this collision. Even right after the controllers professionally did their jobs while dealing with the knowledge of what just happened. If we have an Honest NTSB we’ll eventually get a timeline though if it is true the helo did not have ADSB, the only tracking will be from primary radar.
I watched the video of the collision. You can clearly the helo and the CRJ. You can see, no speculation, the helo did not change altitude before the collision and you can see the landing lights of the CRJ. Airliners on final are lit up like a christmas tree between landing lights, taxi lights, passenger windows, maybe spots on logos, besides navigation and beacon lights. The helo pilot knew the plane was near by, the controller told him and he acknowledged visual sighting so those who say the pilot gave lip service to such a statement is then saying the Army trains bad pilots, but lets be in the cockpit of the helo, moments before impact. You are flying very close to an active airport, you are monitoring ATC, you are made aware of traffic, traffic on final. You can see the plane because the plane was flying over a dark river, not suburban sprawl. Is your situational awareness heightened or are you just “flying around”?
Some the questions I would be asking as a reporter would be, why was a military helo operating that close to a civilian airport without positive (as in vectored flight) ATC control? Why was the helo at such a low altitude that near the final approach to an active runway? With a military helicopter flying that close to a commercial airport, if TCAS or ADSB was turned off, why and who made that decision? I will also interested if the helo made any changes in its flight before the collision because I would not have expected the CRJ to as stated above.
I will see if this administration provides a transparent investigation and is willing to reveal the truth that fits the facts, not a narrative. If this is a military training/operations mistake, the military needs to be held accountable to the fullest. 64 people and their families deserve those answers.
From the information that is available so far, it appears the helicopter was flying along a charted helicopter route and was in contact with ATC, so they were under positive control. The charted helicopter route also requires the helicopter to be at or below 200 feet, unless otherwise authorized by ATC. The chart also says that helicopters should fly at the maximum permissible altitude if the ceiling allows, so it should have been at 200 feet (MSL). It is a good question if and why TCAS/ADS-B was possibly turned off, though.
All you credentials aside Dan, “1000%” is, by definition, “hyperbolic”.
And I’m a fixed-wing and chopper pilot. Nighttime ops over a brightly lit landscape with multiple airborne traffic, offers quite a few more challenges. No doubt blame will be assigned, but as long as humans are involved, no event is even 100% preventable.
TCAS ra’s are inhibited below 1000ft AGL. ADS-B in is overrated and I doubt an airliner would have that function since crews are not allowed to maneuver based on that info alone. There are so many things that will have to be investigated by the NTSB that I will not comment further on this accident. What I will say is that this accident would have never happened if the Secret Service had been allowed to close DCA permanently years ago. The only, ONLY reason it remains open now is for the convenience of Congress so that Senators and Representatives don’t have to go to Dulles to airline home. The fact that general aviation is severely restricted to fly there, very few non governmental airplanes do. The aviation taxes that I pay for to an airport I can’t use would be better spent elsewhere. RIP to those who perished and condolences to their families.
So they are on an opposite trajectory, almost head-on like driving down a road. Atc says to ‘cross behind"’ so naturally you want that CRJ to continue straight, pass to yr left. But at just the wrong time, it turns left right into your path. Obviously controller meant : slow diwn, let the CRJ turn onto final and pass ahead of you left-to-right, THEN pass behind him. Thats how i see this a ‘misunderstanding’. Obviously we need to avail of our 3rd dimension. Rip.
Unless they also stop flying the missions they are training for - reportedly flying VIPs from Fort Belvoir into interior DC locations, I vote they identify the cause and incorporate those learnings into their training rather than quit training for the missions the fly.
Well put, JHull. A couple other compounding factors to consider, include the possibility the Blackhawk was communicating with tower on UHF, so the RJ crew would not have heard those communications and may have been less aware of a possible traffic conflict (I don’t know if LiveATC records UHF as well as VHF). The second is the fact that runway 33 is quite short, and the RJ (which has to be landed by the captain on this runway, at least by Delta standards) has to be sure it’s down within the 1000’ touchdown zone, or the FO is required to call “Go around”. So it’s possible both crew members were focused on the landing zone, and not so much on see-and-avoid that close to the runway.
Absolutely correct, Aviatrexx. Low altitude environment, night time, lots of traffic, ground lights, complex arrival and departure procedures, and add to all that, a last minute runway change and the pilot-not-flying with head down setting up new approach (remember all that automation that makes life so easy?). The helo crew was “threading the needle” along the Potomac. Now, the only way to know for sure what was happening in those cockpits was to be there. I wasn’t, therefore any talk of that is pure speculation, but pointing the finger of blame before the families are even notified is utter hubris.
That is in no way close to what a reporter would ask, nor understand, nor deserve as explanation.