The published Helo routes are designed to minimize noise as much as practical. Lots of 24/7 helo operations. There were two separate problems: the helo deviated from the charted route and was well above the maximum allowable altitude.
Too much clutter in this thread too.
Crucial is what altitude the airliner was at relative to the 200 foot maximum of helicopter operations along the river.
āando140ā calculates expected altitude from basics, thankyou.
One suggestion has been that the helicopter mistook another airliner for the accident one, in determining where to pass behind.
Yes, but only the final track. Seconds before the CRJ turned left to a heading of 330, it was flying more or less towards the Blackhawk for a much longer time. Long enough for the Blackhawk to see the landing lights. I think they forgot they were 200 feet higher. The routine is to fly low enough across the landing approach that traffic avoidance is no concern. Except this time. My theory, anyway.
Beware supposed experts on aviation who media like to grab onto, rarely they think things through.
I commend USA Today newspaper for a sensible article.
The heli was too high. Hereās there altitude from their data feed.
2025-01-30T01:43:57.761107000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:01.730572000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:01.866652000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:03.118195000Z,ae313d,DF11
2025-01-30T01:44:05.567617000Z,ae313d,DF11
2025-01-30T01:44:05.675271000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF04
2025-01-30T01:44:08.120259000Z,ae313d,DF11
2025-01-30T01:44:10.619900000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:11.153976000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:11.872590000Z,ae313d,400,400,DF00
2025-01-30T01:44:22.554651000Z,ae313d,DF11
ārick.freeman100ā:
Are you saying te helicopter was at 400 feet AGL?
Some people calculate the airliner would be closer to 200 ft ASL at the time.
Other sources say the helicopter was supposed to be at 200 ft or below, supposed to descend to that from higher before it got near the runways,
Thatās what the data says. 400 ft. I believe itās MSL, but over the river thereās little difference.
I am saddened by this tragic accident and as a pilot I wonder why the helicopter pilot was not instructed to or on his own hovered short of the active Rwy33 until the CRJ had passed
TCAS inhibit kicks in by 1000 ft, so not available during final approach.
Thanks.
Have to review the calculation of airliner being lower, of course tail has height. (CRJ has engines at rear, T-tail.)
[I meant to say AGL, have to make sure the calculator adjusted for any runway height above the river.)
Altimeter setting is always something to be checked.
Very sad - If the Blackhawk had ADSB, ATC would have seen its altitude (as too high) on their radar. Mil aircraft should be grounded until they have been retrofitted. Itās been an FAA requirement since 2020. If the SOP allow the Mil traffic to pass under a plane on the approach thats just insane.
Mil helios donāt have ADSB
The last ADS-B altitude reading for the CRJ is 275 MSL. All these readings are MSL so the runway height is kind of irrelevant. But theoretically, any runway height should add altitude to the CRJās approach, not make them fly lower. Here are the CRJās last readings. Looks like it went from 400 ft to 275 in less than a second. That could be as it was falling. Especially if the airliner was clipped near the aft section. Viewing pics of CRJās there are a lot of antenna in the fore section, but I couldnāt see any in the aft section. So the plane could possibly by still broadcasting after the hit, as it was falling. Hereās the data, altitude looks like maybe the 7th data field:
01:48:01Z.967,0xa97753,JIA5342,38.84344,-77.0261,P,375,2151,106,319,-1664,A,2200,225,1012
2025-01-30 01:48:02Z.570,0xa97753,JIA5342,38.84367,-77.02634,P,425,2151,106,319,-1664,A,2200,275,1012
2025-01-30 01:48:02Z.757,0xa97753,N,400,327,-448,N,2200,275,0,1012
2025-01-30 01:48:03Z.340,0xa97753,JIA5342,38.84384,-77.02655,P,400,106,319,-1664,A,2200,175,1012
2025-01-30 01:48:03Z.960,0xa97753,N,300,319,-64,N,2200,75,0,313,1012
2025-01-30 01:48:04Z.053,0xa97753,JIA5342,N,275,106,319,-64,N,2200,50,313,1012
Nothing noisier than a midair.
Funny how we are a āglass is 99.9% emptyā society. Nothing bad happens for decades, and when something bad happens, people point out all the reasons why something bad was bound to happen. Itās clear from the evidence that DCA air, traffic control and all the procedures they have in place have worked phenomenally well in the last many decades. Unfortunately, sometimes human induced mistakes happen.
The runway height is relevant to calculation of the nominal altitude for the approach at collision location.
CBC via MSN claims Flight Aware service shows the airliner at 375 feet when tracking ceased, as you point out it could have been falling by then. Flight Track Log AAL5342 29-Jan-2025 (KICT-KDCA) - FlightAware
Some reports such as NY Post suggest to me that coordination between helo and ATC was loose, depending on helo to maintain separation visually. Military.com advises military have stopped such flights.
Thereās more to learn.
Agree.
People need perspective and should work to support safety, motivating competent people to retire early does not do that.
End of 33 is 10 feet.
00443BASE
My point was that the approach altitude isnāt going to vary much between AGL and MSL for whatever calculation youāre doing, and the 10 ft elevation you reported supports that.
Iām hearing a huge variation in heli altitude along RT1 and RT4 as reported by uninformed media, so there is a lot of misinformation out there. One news source reported the heli was at 200 ft all along the Potomac until the last second when it climbed. Iām not seeing that in any data, but it confuses a lot of people when they keep hearing something different. The same news source said the heli was broadcasting ADS-B data, which they do not. They squawk Mode S data. Another silly question posed by the media is why the heli track was so jagged. It actually wasnāt, the jagged path results from triangulation calculations using three ADS-B stations along the way. Determining position using this method is notoriously erratic.
Yes, a deviation, I looked at the charts and the ADS-B exchange replay. The problem is a deviation is inevitable and the separation was nowhere near enough to mitigate that. Noise? Helicopter noise at a military base and over a highway is not a sufficient concern to jeopardize safety. There is no way nobody ever saw an issue with this, of course itās glaringly obvious in hindsight but even without the benefit of hindsight placing airliners on an approach that has less than 1,000ā of separation with a helicopter route when both are flown textbook is absurd from the word go.