That may be a little hyperbolic, Dan. It was dark, with a lot of ground lights, and the NG chopper could easily have lost sight of the CRJ at the worst time. ATC was probably worried about it, or they wouldn’t have issued the “in sight” question. I’m afraid that after a mid-air that results in both aircraft in the water at night, there will be a lot of casualties.
Tragic.
3 replies
Condolences to the families and friends of those affected.RIP
Few pilots, relative to the total population of pilots, will ever be where that Black Hawk and CRJ where. On a few occasions I have been there both unadded and added with NVGs. It is a terribly tight and unforgiving place with lots of lights and ground objects to distract attention of the heli pilots. The fact there was two DC Guard pilots and a third crew member, most likely all three using NVGs and very familiar with the area and they ran into a CRJ tells me maybe the CRJ hit them from the rear. The CRJ pilots never really having much of a chance to see the Hawk in all the ground lights. Condolences to all. Terrible accident.
1 reply
I am an instructor, and retired ATCS. I am also a pilot, so I am aware of the nighttime factors that will have contributed to this incident. I teach ways to prevent this from happening. I don’t deal in hyperbole. There are many things that went wrong in this scenario, and they will be discussed over the next several hours. What is your experience???
2 replies
In that airspace, at night at around 200-300 feet? Not as easy as you beleive.
That is all “positive control airspace”. So what controller was checking their “texts” or doing a cool “snapchat”. Maybe trying to get one last “tik toc” in. With all the screens we look at constantly, there is one big screen every controller should watch, and closely lives are on the line.
I am an instructor, and retired ATCS. I am also a pilot, so I am aware of the nighttime factors that will have contributed to this incident. I teach procedures and other ways to prevent this from happening. I definitely don’t deal in hyperbole. There are many things that went wrong in this scenario, and I am sure they will be discussed over the next several hours.
1 reply
We are all speculating here, so there’s that. However, from the audio it appears the controller asked PAT 25 if they had the CRJ in sight. We can’t hear the response from PAT 25, but the controller’s next transmission directed PAT 25 to pass behind the CRJ. Based on that, it sounds to me like PAT 25 told the controller they had a visual on the CRJ.
Remember that LiveATC isn’t an official audio feed, and there are sometimes differences between what is recorded there and what was actually heard on the frequency. It seemed like some points of the LiveATC audio was running at more than 1x, because I have experience working with those controllers and they aren’t usually speedtalkers. The audio quality also seemed lower than would actually be heard on frequency.
“1000% preventable” is hyperbole.
But regarding “many things that went wrong”, I’m sure one of the biggest is the nationwide controller staffing shortage. Until that is resolved, there will be more accidents/incidents and near-accidents/incidents all around the nation. I’ve seen the controller shortage effects even at my own local Class-D airport, and it’s not good having overworked controllers.
1 reply
I am an instructor and a semi - retired carpenter. I am also a pilot, so I am aware of the night time factors that will have contributed to this accident. I teach ways to prevent this from happening like, don’t fly at night unless you have to and you’re on an IFR flight plan in congested areas. It’s just not worth the risk. Oh, by the way, why don’t we add a few thousand, or, tens of thousands of drones to this mix. That might make things safer, right? We still have a hard time separating full size aircraft. Is there something wrong with this picture?
2 replies
Certainly night flying presents new challenges that aren’t present during the day, but I generally try to avoid using the phrase “it’s not worth the risk” when there are multiple variables involved. For instance, is it night in a piston helicopter or a turbojet airplane, is it a moonless night or a full moon, is it in a populated or unpopulated area, etc. And I have found in many cases, it’s actually easier to spot other aircraft at night than during the day since their lighting is more noticeable. Of course, possible NVG use in a congested area changes that equation (which again goes back to the age old “it depends” mantra).
I completely agree on your point about drones, though.
That is some of the most heavily controlled airspace on planet earth.
I still cannot believe this could happen there.
I am not a helicopter pilot nor am I an airline pilot. And while the non-pilots all debate their newly-discover right of way rules for landing traffic I have to think that no matter who’s fault it really is (and I don’t think it’s any one particular person’s fault) but I think they will hang this on the helo crew.
I have been told by a tower to make a left climbing 360 turn NOW. I did it right NOW without asking why. It took much less than the time I saw that CA flashing on the ATC display from last night. Seems like it was preventable but I won’t go with 100%. Nothing is 100%.
ATC is a radio mumbler! And a speed talker. The Live ATC is real time, not sped up, because you can see the seconds tick off in real time. I’ve been told to fly a 360 to maintain separation and I believe it’s going to come down to the controller giving incorrect instructions based on the assumption the heli had the CRJ in sight. I’m surprised with all the experts being interviewed on TV that no one has said this.
1 reply
It shows it as real-time, but it is not always. I have listened to LiveATC of my local tower while at the airport and also listening on a handheld, and the two don’t always match up 100%. LiveATC also often only captures part of the conversation - it’s quite common to not hear a pilot’s response.
I hear a lot of discussion about ground clutter lights, cars, buildings, etc. We’ve all seen the video of the crash, and even from that distance the landing lights of the CRJ are quite prominent compared to background lights. Since the Blackhawk was heading south, and the CRJ north, then northwest, they were converging roughly head-on. Those landing lights should have been quite apparent. A speed-talking controller combined with check flight distraction will probably be the focus. My understanding is there is a 200 foot ceiling for military helis over the Patomac, and the CRJ was at 400 ft agl. This may also be a factor.
1 reply
I only know one thing about this, and that will be the end of military training flights in Washington airspace
1 reply
IOf I listened correctly and mayby I didn’t, but tower told teh helo anout the CRJ. Copter says they see it and would like visual. Tower says pass behind the CRJ. And then for some reason, lights probably or crew distraction they instead ran into it. A simple a common procedure used constantly at DCA and most airports everywhere. Humans make mistakes. That’s it. Oh, very similar to the PSA that ran into the C172 going into SAN Sept. '78. I see him. Maintain visual. Then lost him and didn’t say anything. The system isn’t perfect (humans involved) but so damn close to it figuring the complexity and massive volume. From 55 year pilot and 38 year controller including L.A. area and ORD.
Perhaps this could have been avoided if the Blackhawk had ADS-B on board (and turned on). I realize that “see and avoid” is best done by keeping our eyes outside the cockpit. That being said, ADS-B traffic on my iPad and GTN 750 guides me on where to look. It’s quite accurate at depicting aircraft location and movement. Military aircraft are supposed to have ADS-B by now. However, from personal experience, the F-16s that frequently train around the airport I fly out of do not come up on my screens as the civilian traffic does. Either they do not have ADS-B yet, or they have it turned off. I have noticed this also when flying through MOAs. This needs to be looked at by the NTSB in this crash. Did they have ADS-B on board AND were they using it? My condolences to the families and friends who lost their loved ones.
The chart seems to authorize 1000 ft just north of Reagan Nat’l., and the heli was coming from the north. The video seems to show the heli was flying relatively level, not descending to 200 ft. I would comment that the altitude restriction going from 1000 ft to 200 ft seems rather abrupt. Not a huge feat for a heli, but for the pilot some awareness and forethought would be required.
1 reply
Didn’t the CRJ have TCAS?
Yeah, I meant to say that the altitude charted is “at or below 200” in the vicinity of KDCA.
“”" Not as easy as you beleive “”"
You have no idea what others believe…
Advice: Stay teachable.
Let’s take a moment first to remember all that perished in this tragic accident. It is easy to say “this should not have happened”, but it did and I certainly hope the focus is 100% on how this happened.
I do want to comment on a couple of things…All of use as pilots, imagine what the cockpit of the CRJ would have been moment before getting hit; they have been cleared to land on R33, they are configured, at 400 ft easy to state the plane is configured to land, they are mostly focused on either instruments, the visual of the runway since they are within 1 min or less of landing. If they even heard the ATC call out to the Helo their situational awareness may not have registered as there were other CRJs in the system. If the Helo had TCAS or ADSI off then nothing would have warned them because in their minds, they had control of Final and who would enter that.
Let us not even consider putting blame on this crew whether it was fast talking ATC (FFS have you listened to Kennedy), or night flying as I am sure they were use to flying at night.
Some here made a uncited statement that the Blackhawk pilots were/may have been wearing NVGs…Why? Why say that without any proof, because as I understand NVGs, any bright light would have rendered them useless and the very bring lights of an airliner would be like looking at the sun way before getting close.
Some here seem to want to point a finger at ATC; because they talk fast, because the recording was not good so they assume that is what the pilots heard…really? I listened to ATC before and after. Nothing, Nothing indicated they gave incorrect commands or through any inattention set up this collision. Even right after the controllers professionally did their jobs while dealing with the knowledge of what just happened. If we have an Honest NTSB we’ll eventually get a timeline though if it is true the helo did not have ADSB, the only tracking will be from primary radar.
I watched the video of the collision. You can clearly the helo and the CRJ. You can see, no speculation, the helo did not change altitude before the collision and you can see the landing lights of the CRJ. Airliners on final are lit up like a christmas tree between landing lights, taxi lights, passenger windows, maybe spots on logos, besides navigation and beacon lights. The helo pilot knew the plane was near by, the controller told him and he acknowledged visual sighting so those who say the pilot gave lip service to such a statement is then saying the Army trains bad pilots, but lets be in the cockpit of the helo, moments before impact. You are flying very close to an active airport, you are monitoring ATC, you are made aware of traffic, traffic on final. You can see the plane because the plane was flying over a dark river, not suburban sprawl. Is your situational awareness heightened or are you just “flying around”?
Some the questions I would be asking as a reporter would be, why was a military helo operating that close to a civilian airport without positive (as in vectored flight) ATC control? Why was the helo at such a low altitude that near the final approach to an active runway? With a military helicopter flying that close to a commercial airport, if TCAS or ADSB was turned off, why and who made that decision? I will also interested if the helo made any changes in its flight before the collision because I would not have expected the CRJ to as stated above.
I will see if this administration provides a transparent investigation and is willing to reveal the truth that fits the facts, not a narrative. If this is a military training/operations mistake, the military needs to be held accountable to the fullest. 64 people and their families deserve those answers.
3 replies
From the information that is available so far, it appears the helicopter was flying along a charted helicopter route and was in contact with ATC, so they were under positive control. The charted helicopter route also requires the helicopter to be at or below 200 feet, unless otherwise authorized by ATC. The chart also says that helicopters should fly at the maximum permissible altitude if the ceiling allows, so it should have been at 200 feet (MSL). It is a good question if and why TCAS/ADS-B was possibly turned off, though.
All you credentials aside Dan, “1000%” is, by definition, “hyperbolic”.
TCAS ra’s are inhibited below 1000ft AGL. ADS-B in is overrated and I doubt an airliner would have that function since crews are not allowed to maneuver based on that info alone. There are so many things that will have to be investigated by the NTSB that I will not comment further on this accident. What I will say is that this accident would have never happened if the Secret Service had been allowed to close DCA permanently years ago. The only, ONLY reason it remains open now is for the convenience of Congress so that Senators and Representatives don’t have to go to Dulles to airline home. The fact that general aviation is severely restricted to fly there, very few non governmental airplanes do. The aviation taxes that I pay for to an airport I can’t use would be better spent elsewhere. RIP to those who perished and condolences to their families.
So they are on an opposite trajectory, almost head-on like driving down a road. Atc says to ‘cross behind"’ so naturally you want that CRJ to continue straight, pass to yr left. But at just the wrong time, it turns left right into your path. Obviously controller meant : slow diwn, let the CRJ turn onto final and pass ahead of you left-to-right, THEN pass behind him. Thats how i see this a ‘misunderstanding’. Obviously we need to avail of our 3rd dimension. Rip.
Well put, JHull. A couple other compounding factors to consider, include the possibility the Blackhawk was communicating with tower on UHF, so the RJ crew would not have heard those communications and may have been less aware of a possible traffic conflict (I don’t know if LiveATC records UHF as well as VHF). The second is the fact that runway 33 is quite short, and the RJ (which has to be landed by the captain on this runway, at least by Delta standards) has to be sure it’s down within the 1000’ touchdown zone, or the FO is required to call “Go around”. So it’s possible both crew members were focused on the landing zone, and not so much on see-and-avoid that close to the runway.
Absolutely correct, Aviatrexx. Low altitude environment, night time, lots of traffic, ground lights, complex arrival and departure procedures, and add to all that, a last minute runway change and the pilot-not-flying with head down setting up new approach (remember all that automation that makes life so easy?). The helo crew was “threading the needle” along the Potomac. Now, the only way to know for sure what was happening in those cockpits was to be there. I wasn’t, therefore any talk of that is pure speculation, but pointing the finger of blame before the families are even notified is utter hubris.
2 replies
That is in no way close to what a reporter would ask, nor understand, nor deserve as explanation.
You don’t get a vote. You also don’t get to ignore that they DO “identify the cause and incorporate those learnings into their training rather than quit training for the missions the fly.”
1 reply
helicopter was supposed to be at or below 200’. Collision likely occurred at 350-400’
Published tower frequencies for Helo’s 134.35, Fixed wing 119.1. Hegseth has already stated that the helicopter was not at the correct altitude.
The helicopter DC charted routings are incredibly complicated.
Also mention of last minute change of runway for the RJ, although anyone who has been to DCA even one time should be prepared for that. Landing on 33 allows the tower to clear an airplane for takeoff on 36 as soon as the landing airplane is thru the intersection.
That particular Helo route is completely unacceptable from a safety standpoint. The person(s) who signed off on that route should be fired…
Hearing what the black boxes say is critical. Was the TCAS in both aircraft on? Why was a military helicopter so close to Reagan Airport? Sounds like the military helicopter battalion should be relocated to somewhere nearby with instructions to stay out of DC airspace except in an emergency or when directed by DOD. If protocols had been followed, this certainly would not have happened. Small private aircraft generally can not enter DC airspace. Which begs the question, why can a military helicopter enter DC airspace? Except for a specific reasons and during low aircraft volume times; the middle of the night! This pilot wants to know!
1 reply
According to the Wall Street Journal, the President this morning “blamed diversity, equity and inclusion programs and Democrats for [a deadly midair collision] outside the nation’s capital—without citing evidence to support his assertions.”
From the helicopter chart, “Note: Pilots are expected to maintain the maximum altitude charted when ceiling permits, unless otherwise instructed by ATC”. So the question is, did ATC authorize the helicopter at the altitude it was at, presuming it was indeed above 200’ MSL.
The charted helo route is along the east shoreline. Two different flight path depictions show the helo deviating from that route to the right just before the collision.
ADS-B OUT is mandated but not ADS-B IN. How does that make any sense? I fly in some of the most congested training traffic in the US -Phoenix AZ. I would not consider flying in that or any other high-threat environment without ADS-B IN. In an emergency a pilot can deviate from any rule to the extent necessary to meet the emergency. ATC is not perfect. Pilots are not perfect. ADS-B isn’t perfect. But combining safety layers is the best way to make flying as safe as it can be.
The RNAV approach for 33 shows a glideslope of 3.1°, and the eastern shore of the Potomic is about 5300’ on the extended centerline from the aiming point. That would put the CRJ at about 288’ above the field. 1000 ft closer, which is probably closer to where the collision occurred, that drops to 233 feet. So seems very likely the collision happend right around 200 ft agl.
Not sure about you guys, but who’s to blame or what exactly happened is somehow irrelevant at this point. Eventually it will be be known.
Imagine having an empty seat at your dinner table or explaining to a 6 year old why someone who was supposed to come home, didn’t. So many people affected by this accident.
So many millions of people fly every day, never once worried about being in a midair. 99.9% of the flying public flies peacefully and safely.
Midairs are among the nastiest things to comprehend or explain to those who suffer the loss of a loved one. How does one explain all this vast open space and why on gods blue planet did these two damn aircraft have to be in the same spot at the same time?
I hope these families will find strength and survive the many story-tellers and “experts” who will offer their unlimited expertise, amongst a breath- and mercyless news and media frenzy, that will yield 0 closure or clarity.
RIP 
I was pointing out (or trying to), that 100LowLed1’s comment that “this will be the end of military training flights in Washington airspace” was not a valid response to this tragedy. I also wasn’t ignoring the purpose and result of accident investigations. The “my vote” comment was my sardonic way of pointing out that it should be obvious that if you continue flying these missions, then after the investigation determines the causes, you incorporate those learnings into the system and continue training for the missions.
Yes, there is a LOT of speculation going on here!
Fact: DCA is not an easy airport for landing due to all of the prohibited zones, namely the infamous P56 (WH). Just about all aircraft must “follow the river”.
Fact: Runway 33 is an even harder runway to land due to the restricted approach and short runway length … it’s also a circle-to-land setup runway. This is why you hear the controller ASKING the landing regionals “can you take 33?”.
Fact: DCA tower uses two frequencies for air, aircraft are on 119.1 and helos are on 134.35 (some late nights, 121.7/ground is also thrown into the mix). On most occasions to include this incident, the same controller is on both frequencies, but the pilots are not hearing each other. This is why you don’t hear any of the helo transmissions, Mussel, Blackjack, Aircare, etc.
Bottom line, DCA is not an easy landing on good days, and 33 is even harder. I do have a thought, but like others, it’s NOTHING but speculation.
I don’t understand the risk/reward of conducting night training flights with night vision in one of the most confined air spaces in the country, or why a visual separation was approved in that confined space. I also found that controller extremely difficult to understand, like maybe 60%. Enunciate and slow down.
1 reply
Call it what you want. In the end, you will discover that this incident was preventable.
You have a very valid point there
33 circle to land is not correct. There is a GPS approach that starts south of the airport and puts the aircraft on final for 33, lined up with the runway.
There has also been some speculation about the Helo being on UHF frequency which the airliner would not recieve.
To me the most bizarre part of this is the turn of the helo into the flight path of the RJ. Had the helo maintained the flightpath depicted on the helo chart it would have passed behind the RJ. Regarding frequencies Ohare has 6 VHF tower frequencies plus 1 UHF. Necessary at Ohare but a serious handicap for situational awareness.
Lots of hype about politics. Fact is that whoever was in charge for the last four years did major damage to both civilian and military aviation. Air traffic control is understaffed and overworked.
Way too much overtime and fatigued controllers. Unqualified controller candidates hired and that makes the more qualified candidates not want the jobs. 19 near misses between airliners in a relatively short period of time. Its a miracle that the DC accident does not repeat about once a month.
1000 hours for the instructor pilot and 500 for the pilot in command of the helo is NOT highly experienced. I had 4000 hours when I got typed and Capt qualified in my first large airplane. That was the insurance minimum at that time. Other’s were at least as well qualified. I was the only one in my class to pass the rating ride the first time.
I know 33 has a GPS approach, but I still call it a circle-to-land. Even with the accident aircraft, the aircraft was lined up for 1 when the controller asked him if he could take 33 (I also noticed it took him a minute to confirm he would take 33). I know these are old, but this is from when they were actually calling it circle-to-land.