Some can, some can’t. Don’t really disagree 1500 hours are arbitrary, but that extra time does help with airmanship and decision making in any flying environment. As a Line Check Airman I see it all, both good and bad. One thing for certain, there is no substitute for the right experience and training when dozens to hundreds of lives are at risk.
I’m up for a drivers license renewal and I have the option of “M”,”F” or “X”.
I will certainly not be selecting “M” this go around; and that’s to perturb both camps.
If I select “F”, does that make me a better driver? Does it somehow convey extra privileges? Do I get to drive in the car pool lane? Does it speak as to my capabilities as an operator of an automobile? If I get pulled over for speeding, if the LEO calls me “sir”, can I sue?
If I select “F”, has any biological or physical change taken place? If I walk into planned parenthood and demand an abortion, would they deny me service?
Seems there’s more benefits selecting “F” or “X” than selecting “M”.
For many years, the right seat was occupied by low time pilots. It was working just fine until Colgan. In the early '60s, United ran ads saying that if you had a private license and would go get your commercial and instrument, they would put you into their hiring program right now. A friend of mine had just gotten his commercial, instrument, and minimum multi time in an Apache through a USAF Aero Club, was hired immediately as a North Central FO in a Convair. He said the training kicked his ass as did some of the Captains he flew with. He retired as a very successful B747 Captain. So low time hires work just fine if the airline has demanding and high standards then. USAF lets their young new pilot trainees loose flying jets solo with less than 200 hrs. It’s the training program and the demands that make low time hire work. Also though, back when, the new low time FO was first flying a prop of some type. An additional 1000 hours as a C172 CFI hasn’t given that pilot any more real experience than he/she probably had at 500 hrs. As I said, low time FOs worked just fine for many years.
You mean back in the day when the Captain looked at the FO and said “Sit down, shut up and don’t touch anything I don’t tell you to”? LOL
You are absolutely right on the training side but with DEI lowering training standards, the high cost of flight training, lower numbers of pilots and the larger pool of commercial pilots required due to the sheer volume increases in commercial flying the past 60 years the competency standards are lower. They probably shouldn’t be, but there is no doubt they are.
The typical copilot on a Navy P3 or now a P8 has about 350 hours total time. This is operational flying, not just door to door. Good training and an experienced aircraft commander have kept their accident record is outstanding. The 1500 hour ATP rule was a reaction, not a response. As said below, supply, demand, and economy play a large part in who gets in the cockpit.
…interesting that there hasn’t been a single mention of Lufthansa’s Ab Initio program in this thread. Students literally began the selection process in high school, then came to AZ and did their initial instruction in F-33 Bonanzas and Barons, spin training in T-34s then back to Bremen for turbine work in Cheyennes, and finally into a 737 sim. Given their rather good safety record, I’d say it’s worked out. Oh, and you had to pay back every penny, out of your salary, that they spent to train you. The program has moved, primarily, to the EU; interestingly, the EASA now grants what is referred to as a “frozen” ATPL (Air Transport Pilot license) which is basically a Commercial/Instrument ticket, and a full ATP at 1500 hours, 500 of which are logged in two person cockpits. Lastly, can we move beyond the “woke” this and “tranny” that? I really couldn’t care less if the cockpit is filled with Barbra Streisand impersonating drag queens who are married to aardvarks if said crew can shoot an approach to minimums at night and get me home.
There are a few threads in this discussion.
- In the US, due to an adequate supply of ex-military pilots, especially through the 1970’s and perhaps beyond; there was no need for airlines to be concerned about ab-initio pilot training. As I recall (someone may correct me) Herb Kelleher when he co-founded Southwest Airplanes, he hired all the pilots from a USAF squadron that flew the military version of the B737. Millions of dollars were spent training military pilots funded by taxpayer money which favored US airlines and, in this case, free to SWA. The military no longer is a main source of airline pilots.
- Internationally, ab-initio training funded by airlines is the standard. Is there something that we can learn about ab-initio training? Paradoxically, there are a number of US flight schools which provide ab-initio training for foreign airlines.
- Once passed 50 hours dual-given in a C172 doing pattern work, any additional hours don’t add much value in terms of experience. What is missing is working in the IFR environment. This might imply that the CFI pathway is not the best, maybe “freight-dog” pathway or charter is better, assuming that opportunities are there. The challenge for CFIs qualifying for the ATP are the 50 hrs. of multi-time (FAR 61.159 (a)(3)) and the 500 hrs. PIC cross country time (FAR 61.159 (a)(1)). For the latter, all restricted-ATP options from 750 to 1500 hours accept 200 hrs. PIC cross country flights. (FAR 61.160 (e)).
Really depends on the individual and their training.
Some pilots are marginal, shouldn’t be flying pax. People from the old Avsig forum remember reports that a nice guy was not suitable to fly with again.
I’ve told my story of watching newer pilots on check rides in the Herc, great difference.
As for reverse racism, Republic is pandering as that gets points with gummint these days.
I’ve told the story of Marg Fane flying the BC coast in the 1950s.
The questions as to demographics are:
- attractiveness of the career (airline flying if questionable for many women)
- awareness of the career (real awareness, people are addressing that)
- false claims of discrimination are politically correct, seen in engineering as well (one young lady had to speak out and say she had done fine, I also point out that people help: old males for example encourage young women, but some religions advocate against women in engineering)
- getting early experience seems to be a limitation, Republic’s scheme may help that
As for psychographics, women tend to think carefully about a career, perhaps investigate more. Alaska Airlines is losing pilots because of unhappiness of pilots with management’s avoidance of learning from the past and planning ahead - for years now. (Recall its Horizon subsidiary had to contract some flying out because it failed to hire enough pilots.)
Assuming that the title is correct, it is a bit concerning: Republic Seeks 1500-Hour Rule Exemption (referring to the status of Republic). There are four pathways to the restricted-ATP from 750 to 1500 hrs. (total) – all are covered in FAR 61.160. If true for Republic, why can’t they find qualitied pilots with 750, 1000 and 1250 hrs.? Seems that they are only seeing the 1500 hrs. applicants.
Furthermore, this statement is misleading: Right now, the main exemption to the so-called 1500-hour rule is one that allows military pilots to get an ATP at 750 hours. While true for military pilots, it is not it does not consider 1000 and 1250 hr. options. See FAR 61.160.
Your cluelessness and filtering to see only what you want relegates you to the ash heap of society. THEY indeed, go away, just go away
I suspect the pilot who did not take the hint of another pilot on a check ride was not keeping situational awareness to detect when something goes wrong.
I don’t know what he did wrong, wish I’d asked the hinter what he saw that prompted him to ask the checkee where he was.
I know the hinter went on to do very well for the airline, do not know what happened to the checkee. I met one 3rd-seater who came from instructing at a flight school (a popular path in those days).
Females have been out flying and dying for most of the powered flight era. One very early one met several of the PC criteria - female, black African blood, native American blood, and from Texas. (Media like to slice and dice, probably rolled through 40-umpty states as ‘first female pilot in’. (I forget how many states the US had then, aside from HI some of the present states came from slicing up such as the Oklahoma Territories and the Dakota Territories). By the time HI was accepted it probably already had many female pilots, even before Mimi Johnson’s time.)
Yes, she was discriminated against - jerk Curtis blocked throttle travel to prevent her from being able to lift off despite charging her for flight training, later wised up and hired her. (She diagnosed the problem - found the block of wood, threw it aside, and proceeded to take off, to his horror - apparently believed she would crash despite his training. Not a clear thinker.)
Amusing tidbit about the Dakotas. Wikipedia says “President Benjamin Harrison shuffled the statehood papers before signing them so that no one could tell which became a state first; consequently, the two states are officially numbered in alphabetical order.” Take that! media babblers. :-o)
I am ok with 750 hours if it is a well designed program with lots of training and even a solo requirement to do a number of cross country flights with conditions like at night, in the mountains high altitude, actual short fields, appropriate instruments flights in actual weather in an aircraft like a 182 or cirrus. etc. to get actual experience.
I took training from experienced instructors for my instrument refresher ( I had not flown for 8 years, family, business etc) that had never been outside of 60 miles from home. we went on a night cross country and he was incredibly scared. even though he had an ATP he was not qualified to go anywhere as he had not experienced any real. I had done a lot of that type of cross country flying and I knew far more about dealing with actual weather. the prospect of light rime being possible scared him silly.
This proposal is despicable and irresponsible.
It seems you just made Larry’s point for him. You got where you are by talent and hard work, not because of your skin color.
Simple survival instinct says we should want our pilots, our surgeons, anyone else our lives depend on, to be selected NOT BY THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN BUT BY THE CONTENT OF THEIR CHARACTER. (Gee, where have I heard that before???)
The only viable solution for “underrepresentation” of certain groups is to address the environment in which children are raised and educated. By the time they are young adults, unable to read or understand math at 9th grade levels, it is too late to “affirmatively” make them into skilled professionals into whose hands you would entrust your life or the lives of people you love.
We need to listen to the urgent message of people like Thomas Sowell, or Congressman Byron Donalds, or Herschel Walker, or Harris Faulkner and address the “root causes” (yes, Kamala, sometimes that works!) of “underrepresentation,” not try to fix it by shoehorning unqualified adults into life-and-death jobs.
Note I said civilian pilot. I have no problem with the level of training given in the military. I did not serve in military so my experience is flying with other pilots who have. In most cases I can see a big difference in military trained pilots vs civilian training. And judging from what I have observed at CHS and LCK Air Force bases those pilots have no problem with flying a traffic pattern in C130, C17, or KC135 without a 5+ mile final.
No he has a point. This is Republic trying to get around the ATP requirement so they can go back to paying their pilots slave wages again. Pretty clever angle. The government types will be scared to death of being called a racist and will bow to it.
Equal opportunity is what there should be, equal outcomes is however what the woke want and there is only one way to do that and it doesn’t work. The Soviet Union proved that.
Pretty clever of Republic, if the FAA will be forced to accept this for fear of being labeled racist. Republic (And other lines which will follow) will be able to go back to the bad old days of what was basically slave labor for SICs paying them enough to just disqualify for food stamps. A more reasonable approach would be to make the restricted ATP 1000 hours for SIC instead of 1500 or the other variables. Also allow pilots between 65 and 70 be SIC. I think these two things will help somewhat for now. Eventually the airlines are going to have to do ab initio training like Lufthansa and others. That is the only way. Hopefully the keep the “wokeness” out of it and accept applicants on merit only.