I though age 65 was an ICAO limit. Are there any countries that refuse air carrier international fights with a PIC older than age 65?
So right You’re, Gregory W.
Ah man…the topic was about raising the pilot age limit. Because of that, if you wish to make a statement, you should then express why, intelligent thought, as to why it is a good idea or not a good idea, maybe some facts supporting yes or no. But no! Here some of you go again mistaking this as Facebook and telling all how you feel about our politicians. I miss that connection as to why raising the age is good or bad. Why must you!! What makes you feel so compelled!
But as long as I’m drifting, ATC types by law may not act as controllers past their 56th birthday. And the max hiring age then becomes 31, so all folks get the chance to hit the magic 25 years of employment before getting the boot. That max age rule only applies to controllers hired after '83, I believe that’s it. So most of them before '83 are retired or dead by now. I had hired before '83 and was grandfathered in the no age limit category. I told all my ATC folks that I was going to vector until I was drooling all over the scope and they couldn’t stop me.
“We already are a ways down the path where skin color and gender have become the most desirable qualifications.”
These are your words. If you truly believe that skin color and gender have become the most desirable qualifications for airline pilots, my comment stands. I will also add you are a misinformed dolt as well.
So Greg W lied when he said our current Secretary of Transportation is a Marxist. Got it. Interesting how people throw around terms like Marxist and Communist and have no clue what those words mean.
Sen. Graham (SC) is one sponsor and there is wide discussion that it is motivated by SC constituency politics because he has been pressed on the pilot shortage from several fronts. My many 121 friends are generally reporting that their unions and management are both aligned in apposing raising the retirement age. Both unions and airlines have been internally messaging their opposition to members and pilots.
The management rationale to appose this is bald economics: what pilot population do you thing they have on long term disability while waiting for their retirement date to hit: Yes, pilot that are in the last 10% of their careers. Raising the retirement age would make the majors, in particular, keep paying for 3 more years. No rational CEO would want to be on the hook for that. Good luck renegotiating the contracts too, the unions won’t budge on that aspect.
Really doubt these will pass into law. But who knows, it could be stuffed into an omnibus bill or budget bill and just go along for the ride.
The pay is pretty good anyway you look at it. Even for the regionals. The issue is gaining the hours to get to the job in the first place. We need to go to a system where the airlines can train their own pilots and with an approved system reduce the hours needed to be a second in command. That is the answer.
Good one about drooling on the scope. My thoughts regarding the topic are exactly the same as yours.
Sad but true. I am in construction. We offer the magic $15 an hour at a minimum, we have the health insurance, paid vacation, we reimburse for education, we train. All those things people are whining about yet we cannot get anyone to work. Problem is we drug test, we expect them to be on time and to work, we expect them to be there every day unless they are sick. It seems sadly we expect to much.
Okay, kiddies, now that we’ve gotten all our biases out there I have something for you to think about:
Somebody had better be looking at the mechanic/avionics technician needs. I find it remarkable that nobody seems to be aware that it takes one and a half to two years in school or two and a half years as an apprentice to get an Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic certification and that is only the starting point.
No airline will look at a mechanic seriously, with less than two years industry work experience, after getting the A&P cert.
No aircraft with a defect may return to service until a certified A&P signs it off as safe to return to service.
Then there’s the pathetic pay. Unless and until the mechanic pay comes up there’ll be no rush to the schools to be certified.
It won’t matter how many pilots they have sitting around in reserve at $150K+ yearly, when there are no planes fit to fly for want of a certified mechanic.
There have been, and are, too many initiatives to make fewer mechanics with lower qualifications necessary. LEAN, Simplified Technical English, TQM and SMS (aka. fox in the henhouse) all do nothing but lower the bar and increase the risk. I hope people are reading the news as the accident and incident numbers slowly increase. Enough pontification. Good luck out there. ?
No one has mentioned the hastily implemented, ill-thought out legislation that raised the ATP requirement to 1500 hours unless you had specific university or military training. This rule has done more, all by itself, to curtail the numbers of candidates willing to endure the time and expense to become an airline pilot. There have been some innovative, forward-thinking entities (Republic Airlines) who have proposed specifically tailored, airline-specific training programs that would produce a quality, well-trained and motivated individual at much less expense and fewer required hours. This is an idea that deserves grater investigation.
Some of the comments on this topic are truly works of COF thinking; along the line of “when men were men and steel eyed pilots flew manual through storms and commanded respect.”
I personally would not care if the FAA removed any age requirement and focused on increased testing and check rides that focused on mental acuity, attention to detail, and CRM. That will not solve the core issue, because more pilots are leaving then entering and I really do not see one damn thing in place to fix that problem.
Let’s bottom line it, the ability to enter aviation has increased to the point where it is getting beyond the average/middle class kid to afford. When I got my PPL in the mid-90’s at a small flight school it was costing me $60 and hour and wet rental at $70 for a Piper Tomahawk or C152. Researching today put’s a basic VFR rental at close to if not over $100 an hour and what young person can afford that. I was a high 5 figure professional and I still had to budget my flight costs and when I got to IFR I stopped, because I knew I could not afford the time requirements to be a safe IFR pilot. Sucked, the decision, but it was the right choice for me.
“Well there is school” you say and sure there is, but now you’re asking young people to make a commitment to a profession without really knowing the full extent of what is required and put a minimum of $100,000 of debt on their shoulders. What if they don’t make it? What if they have a life change or what if they get hired and the airline lays them off 6 months after starting. Aviation has never been a secure job, even for captains.
So, the old school path of GA PPL, Instrument, Commercial, (CFI), ATP has become expensive to the point that the aviation industry struggles to get younger people into newer planes. 1500 hours is the magic line now and if you had 100 people start down that path, you may only have a small percentage that cross the line.
Aviation schools (Universities) could be a path, but now we get into cost issues, completion issues, and again many enter, fewer finish, but now they hold A LOT of debt and if the airlines F them over, yes they will leave.
I’d like to see Airlines (who are so sadly desperate) create paths where they set up training institutes, cover most of the cost of flight education (maybe have government support) then require X amount of time with the company with early departure penalties but reciprocally, they cannot cut pay furlough to remove those pilots till they’ve worked their time.
Retirement age increases will not solve this problem. GA can never return to a halcyon day of low cost aviation experiences that not just inspire, but provide a viable path to becoming an ATP.
I don’t cry over the lamentations of the airline industry, because flying is not a right, there are alternatives to travel, and if this current issue causes some airlines to fail then it will just be the market doing what it always has done, adjust to the times.
The age 56 rule was put into effect in the 70’s as a response to a PATCO/FAA agreement. I was hired in 1980 and had to retire when I hit 56 years of age. I applied for a waiver but was denied. Maybe you are thinking of the PATCO strike?
Abolish all age limits and ratings. Require all new hires to log 250 hrs. of computer time on how to fly an airliner and an oral exam given by Lindsay Graham. Problem solved.
Yea. The age law was a result of Public Law 92-297 in '72. But somewhere along the way, we (many controllers) had the understanding that prior to '83, FERS enactment, we were exempt from the retirement requirement. That was from my last two facilities, ORD and BNA. I used to go out of my way and joked about it. Understood and never contested. But that was more than 20 years ago. I quite currency at age 53 though and stayed till 58 as staff/manager kinda guy. Now, scratching my head.
You make a good point. The pilot shortage is the obvious tip of the iceberg, but the maintenance end of the equation is equally important and is being totally overlooked. Being an A&P in general aviation is neither glamorous nor well-paying. Working for the airlines generally means working at night (when the planes are down), doing reams of paperwork, facing difficult deadlines when a scheduled fight has a mechanical problem, and being subjected to intense scrutiny if or when an accident occurs. The work is often insufferably hot or freezing cold. Small wonder that today’s youth are not interested. I just lost the A&P/IA that has maintained my airplane for the past decade. A sudden illness forced him to retire, taking more than a half-century of knowledge with him. Finding a good replacement is proving to be a challenge. Like doctors, some of the A&P/IAs in the area are not taking on any new clients. I have considered getting my A&P license, but holding down a job makes attending mechanic’s school almost impossible (the local school does not offer classes at night). Senator Graham’s proposal only kicks the can a few years down the road without any attempt at solving the root problem (typical congressional buck-passing). And, it ignores half of the problem.
I think I found what I was kinda remembering. It was hired before '72, not '83. I was a '68 hire and is where myself and a few others I worked with got to drool if we wished to do so. But, guaranteed that those controllers are indeed retired (or dead) now. I feel slightly better about what I thought I was remembering anyhow.
Excerpt from the age 56 retirement rule.
The following categories of CSRS air traffic controllers are automatically
exempted from mandatory separation:
• Air traffic controllers who were first appointed by the Department of
Transportation before May 16, 1972;
@GregoryW:…In other words…people who don’t vote the way YOU vote are people “without a clue”. I’ve got some news for you, other than age and valid citizenship …. EVERYONE has a RIGHT to VOTE! (or perhaps you’re one of those who think only the 1st and 2nd Amndmnts have any validity…?
GregoryW…it is YOU who first threw out the race and gender card. YOU ARE a genuine racist. (I’ll bet you’re one of those who says they grew up and Never thought the N-word was a bad thing also.
PS: I’m white, Christian, and reconstructed.
“ Gregory W. ….If our marxist Secretary of Transportation ….”
Yep, Gregory, YOU are REAL WEINER!