The late Capt. Dave Gwinn (if memory serves me correctly), when asked, “Where’d you learn how to do that?” [land a transport category jet airliner in a crosswind using a crab kickout] - “In Cessna 150s.”
I used to like to fly it sideways down to fairly close to touchdown, then straighten it out. If there’s a stiff crosswind from the right, you’d expect the touchdown to be on the right main gear first. Just not quite that hard, lol. Looked like the bottom dropped out from them and they just slammed it down on the runway.
Nothing is “new” as far as crashing airplanes go.
When a perfectly good airplane in daylight VFR conditions and no traffic interference crashes onto an active runway; then the simplest explanation is usually the one closest to the truth. Occam’s razor.
It would be “wild speculation” and “pure guessing” to suggest anything other than pilot error at this point.
You may be right, Arthur, pilot error could be the cause. It’s the leading theory and at first glance the simplest explanation. But simplicity doesn’t guarantee accuracy. Occam’s razor isn’t about rushing to judgment; it’s about starting with the most straightforward possibility while relying on evidence, not assumptions. The TSB’s investigation, through FDR and CVR analysis, will reveal what truly happened.
Facts many times lead to fiction and that is a fact. Think about it for awhile. Sometimes the obvious is just that. Sometimes it’s not. That being said, I’m with Arthur on this one.
When 75-80 percent of aviation crashes are pilot error,
When no report of mechanical problems were reported,
When other similar planes were landing normally,
When multiple cameras caught a no-flare very hard landing,
WHO is the airline to tell people it’s wrong to connect the dots?
The sheer arrogance of that is galling.
People can think and say and question and judge if they want wile waiting.
Delta is digging a tall public relations hole by chastising customers.
Matt, I am not sure what you fly but I am Type Rated in 5 Part 121 large aircraft. Not ONE of them are built to take a 3 degree glide path without a flare to landing. On an ILS in a 777 your rate of descent can be at times over 800’/min. Not within the aircrafts limits. We actually have a readout after every landing that gives us touchdown parameters. If those are out of limits there is an investigation and remedial training is the norm. Crosswind controls in a commercial aircraft are required. You do use rudder and slight wing low to keep track until the mains touchdown. How you can watch that and think it’s structural failure caused by anything else than pilot error is beyond me. I feel for those pilots. If the FO was flying then there needs to be a hard look at the Captain. Captains are required to make landings under difficult conditions, which this was.
*I have 8000 hours in the DC9. A mix of short body, 30 series and MD 82. My first thought is that I have seen landings in the 9 that probably were as bad as that . All observed from the right seat or the jump seat. During my first few months in the 9 I flew with some Captains that were excellent. and taught me a lot. One memorable event was a Capt who gave a long explanation about how
wingtip clearance is not a factor in a maximum limit crosswind landing. This included a long explanation of the math involved. Airplanes with wing mounted engines are a different matter. Especially the four engine airplanes which are largely gone. One small factor that should be considered is the relationship of the main gear to the wingtips. On the 9, the CRJ and others the wingtips are aft of the main gear. The best wingtip clearance in a maximum crosswind is obtained by a relatively flat landing attitude, keeping the nose just high enough that the mains touch before the nosewheel touches the runway
I have for my entire career been a severe critic of my own performance. In addition I would watch how Captains performed. In many cases I would mentally catalog the worst performances and make a commitment to myself that I would not do those dumb, sometimes careless and reckless mistakes.
I spent far too much time with Captains who simply did not know how to land the airplane. I believe some could not be taught. The worst landing I ever made was not even close to the best landing I saw with some of those Captains. In 10 years with the airplane I have never seen a scraped wingtip or landing gear failures due to hard landings. One copilot who simply could not land the airplane made a hard landing with another Captain that broke the overhead compartments and dumped the contents on the passengers. The lawsuits were still pending when the company folded.
It is controversial speech that needs the most protection and exposure says the first amendment, but not AvWeb apparently. We are all adults here and should be able to see and judge every comment for ourselves, then respond or ignore without them being censored (“flagged”) by uberlib progressives, MAGAs or religious fundamentalists.
I enjoy the Monday morning quarterbacks, with their theories, philosophies, impact Gs… etc. To those of you passing judgment, or making claims to have the answers? You are all clueless without a clues that least up to the accident. Some posters with their sarcastic comments “Yeah they exceed the FAA minimums”. How about mainline crews who landed at wrong airports? How about mainline crews who ran aircraft off the end of the runways causing fatalities? Didn’t they exceed the FAA minimums? Oh wait… crews who shut wrong engines down?
My first flight was 03-01-53… Boy I never seen so many idiots in my lifetime as some people who write about air crashes before they are investigated…Please go out and get yourself a life…Fred
I agree Raf… let’s wait for the data before speculating. Armchair guessing is worth exactly what it costs to produce. Other than that, the landing appeared to be my normal crosswind technique…
Seriously, I’m so thankful there were no fatalities and that (from my armchair) is a tribute to the Lord and the aircraft engineers.
Fred, in the “old days” investigators had to go to remote areas and pick through the wreckage and try to reconstruct the physics involved so they could have some idea of the impact and some idea of how the aircraft had to be in order to end up like it did. So yea, ordinary people had no real information and had to wait for the investigative report.
In modern days everyone already knows the ADS-B flight path data, the recorded ATC radio communication, weather data, and we all had a front row seat to the accident via multi-angle recorded video. Only thing missing from the public at this point is the CVR “oh crap” at the end.
For most pilots, getting your rating with the “minimum” required flight hours and instruction is a goal. Going well over that raises red flags for most instructors and examiners.
My wife is a pilot and has had to put up with all the crap from “old timers” like on this forum.
I was forced to retire a little over two years ago because I had reached an arbitrary age of 65. I had achieved over 26,000 accident and violation free hours after spending 38 years as a pilot for a major airline, most of those in the left seat. I will not judge why this accident happened until the NTSB makes it’s final investigative report, but I have to tell you, the arrogance of the decision makers in our federal government has caused me some anger since then. Airlines Can't Keep Baby Boomers Pilots Flying 'Indefinitely:' Buttigieg - Business Insider
During a hanger session at the FBO where she got her PP the week before, my wife, twice as old as the young, male instructor pilots there, decided to game them on the attitudes she had been seeing over the past six months.
Knowing that almost all of them were building hours (for the minimum) needed for that right seat job at Mesaba, she mentioned how she was just hired at another FBO with a corporate charter service. After jaws dropping, muttered cursing and a few “damn women” comments, she happily explained the job was in the FBO’s upholstery shop. Their reaction to that was priceless.