jjbaker
Maybe its best to accept, that open minds are a thing of the past. Political grandstanding and lots of meaningless white noise rule in todays society.
Maybe its best to accept, that open minds are a thing of the past. Political grandstanding and lots of meaningless white noise rule in todays society.
To my best understanding, Kara Hultgren suffered a flame out on a poor approach that was being waved off. She responded either too late or her reaction / response was not how pilots were taught for that flameout. Her backseat aviator ejected properly and survived. Kara ejected after the plane crossed below parallel and was killed likely at impact into the ocean. Flameouts on final were a known occurence and pilots trained how to respond.
At Reagan airport. Trump jumped the gun. But two mistakes IMOH led to death. Mistake by pilot which final approach aircraft was supposed to be seen. And control tower understaffed and unable to fix or recognize the helo . Combo of 2 human errors killed 67. Both errors need to be addressed along with running these helo training while commercial ops are running at Reagan DCA. Poor FAA mgmt may be the bigger culprit.
The helicopter should never have been where it was. Had that been the case, the accident would never had happened. The primary purpose of the airport’s existence is to transport people to and from itself, not for military training. Clear the airspace of everything that is not supposed to be there and all will be well. No exceptions.
Get rid of DEI and you no longer have a DEI problem. You’ve taken away all argument for, or, against DEI. Keep the focus simple for the task at hand and all will be well. Quit trying to solve everyone’s misguided issues. Stay singular in focus. Get rid of the noise. This isn’t tough to figure out.
1 reply
It’s really good to see PB’s name ‘in lights’ here again.
Anyone who CAN tie their aviation shoelaces can see where the problem at DCA occurred, as Donnnnn aptly points out. We don’t need the obsessive, time consuming and costly NTSB investigation results to figure it mostly out. The plethora of data available already show where the causal problems were to those of us who know how to pull back on the stick and make the houses get smaller.
One ATC type doing duty as ground/tower/approach when two or more were called for was a major part of the problem. A radar scope video I saw showed a “CA” (I surmise conflict alert?) for both airplanes as they were converging. I’m guessing the guy in the tower was too busy looking out the window to see that. I don’t know if the CA on Brightscope gives an aural warning but if the full compliment of people required had been there, it sure wouldn’t have been a bad thing. It wasn’t until a few seconds before the crash that the helo’s altitude readout changed to 300’ from 200’. I’m not sure anything could have been done about the conflict at that point.
As you pointed out elsewhere, once the helo reported ‘in sight,’ the onus was mostly off the tower but it doesn’t erase the problem of ATC short staffing Nationwide or in that tower cab. Anyone who flies and uses their services (the insiders) knows this. The lawsuit by 1,000 people passed over for controller jobs after training for those jobs to enable DEI quotas is likewise a fact. So, too, is the Supreme Court finding that DEI quotas are illegal. DEI IS reverse discrimination to achieve artificial goals … an extreme form of affirmative action. It’s no more right than discrimination once was. You said it yourself … bending over backward to help the lower end of the bell curve is a recipe for disaster as showcased here. From where I sit, DEI is a major problem throughout Government and the President has set out to end it. It’s obvious you don’t like him but if you want US to keep an open mind then it applies to you, too.
In this accident, I assign 70% of the blame on the helo crew and Army training SOP. The other 30% goes to ATC.
6 replies
I think that Captain Sullenberger’s 3 word response to trump’s political posturing on this tragedy was perfect, “Not surprised, disgusted.” I absolutely support DEI when it does the job of insuring that all persons, regardless of gender or race, have an equal opportunity at every job and position in America. If two applicants are equal in every way I also have no problem with DEI being used as a tie breaker in favor of the DEI candidate. Should unqualified persons of any race or gender be given a position they are unqualified for? Obviously no. Trump’s outsized posturing against DEI panders to his base and a threatened and aggrieved group of largely white males who feel threatened by societal changes. I am a member of that group; male, white and grey haired, and see his myopic focus on DEI as a perversion of Equal Opportunity ised in reverse to play to his base and sooth the egos of a fearful segment of society who are fearful of losing power and influence. I am with Sullenberger, his position on this disgusts me. I am also retired military and no “Liberal”.
5 replies
DEI does not provide for equal opportunity. It is a quota system. I don’t understand how that is missed. DEI requires quotas to be met. Again, nothing mysterious here.
2 replies
Hello Paul; timely return. Like you, I hope investigators are able to put on political blinders when doing their jobs because it’s clear politicians, pundits, and slanted news media will do everything possible to make political hay with this accident.
Not that DEI efforts haven’t gone off the rails in some ways, but the impact on system safety may be a reach.
Exactly. And you see the same kind of political grandstanding on both sides. On the left there are those suggesting Trump’s early moves regarding FAA staffing and DEI policies may have somehow contributed to this accident. The staffing problem(s) at KDCA existed long before Trump took the oath.
The way it’s shaping up, it appears the most impactful response to this tragedy is to limit VFR helicopter operations when airliners are operating. I understand some of these operations have been deemed “important” to national security, but they can practice during periods when airline operations are at a low point. Perhaps between 0200 - 0400.
1 reply
The “CA” did cause an aural alarm in the tower cab. It can be heard in the background as the tower controller contacts the helicopter and asks (for the second time) “do you have traffic in sight”?
The helicopter responds with the same request as previous: “traffic in sight, request visual sep”.
The controller again approved the request and asked the helo to “pass behind” the traffic.
About five seconds later the two collided.
I could be wrong Paul, maybe I missed it reported otherwise, but I had the impression the female Captain with 500 hours was being given a routine eval ride by the male CW2 instructor pilot with 1000 hours. While the Caption being a higher rank, outranked the CW2, she would not be in command of the eval ride other than demonstrating she had the ability. In fact the case may be she was not yet allowed to be a PIC in that helicopter at that time in that unit.
1 reply
Merit based hiring and promotions are the only way to maximize safety and efficiency. From my research, she was enjoying an exceptional life, and it ended too soon. This disaster will get a thorough investigation.
I miss Paul’s videos and his opinions.
Kara, her family and friends have long ago paid the price.
Additional annoyance was with Pol/Sr Mil reaction that suddenly this 20 year, known F-14 contributing tech issue was of national importance, devaluing all who came before.
DEI is great in theory, a complete failure in practice. DEI in practice always reverts to quotas just like affirmative action did and does. There is no difference in the end. All quotas.
1 reply
Paul, anytime you use a metric other than competence to hire someone you run the risk of an incompetent candidate. By definition that is what DEI is, instead of focusing solely on competence we are using a DIFFERENT METRIC. It is obviously unsafe to allow any form of DEI in aviation, but it’s stupid to allow it anywhere else. People should be hired for their merit, not for a meaningless attributes like their “sex”, “gender identity”, or “race”. No one cares about that shit when they are in the back of your airplane, they care that are QUALIFIED. That should be the ONLY STANDARD, full stop. I saw DEI effect safety as a flight instructor all the time, as unqualified and inept candidates passed checkrides, likely because the examiner was afraid of the “race” or “feminism” card being pulled. If you think it’s not happening in the airlines, think again. Things change Paul, and in this case they have changed for the worse.
With no inside information on my part her previous job was at the white house in a DEI like job. Suspect all trump needed for his stupid, ill-timed remarks. What struck me was trainee was at desk job for x amount of time and obviously transferred to this army unit recently. 500 hrs with none of it likely recent, flying a training mission is an area where tolerances matter. Here we have a distracted co/training pilot helping an overloaded trainee - accidents will occur.
I disagree that there is anything great about the theory. It is unjust to hire solely based on race, sex, or so called “gender identity”. By definition hiring based on those qualifiers IS discrimination. Everything about DEI is unjust, racist, sexist, and has no place in our American system. Hire the qualified candidate for the job, if it ends up being 80% men or 80% who cares? Get the qualified people for the job and allow anyone to ATTEMPT to prove themselves qualified.
After the Gulf War I was visiting Israel. A friend introduced me to his friend who, at the time, was a General in the IDF. During conversation, I asked him about the effectiveness of women in the Israeli military. His immediate response surprised me answering, “It’s a problem”. He explained, “Israel is a small country and unlike the U.S. does not have sufficient troops without enlisting women. The problem is, during combat, the men protect the women instead of killing the enemy”. Imagine that.
1 reply
Easy enough to fix that. Instead of eliminating DEI, just eliminate any alleged “quota” and use the system as intended. Ensure that everyone gets a fair shake opportunity at a job/promotion etc, and not locked up in nepotism or the “good old boys” system. Surely no reasonable person could, or should, be opposed to elimination of bias and prejudice in hiring and promotion. Gender, race, and nepotism should have no place in hiring and promotion if we truly want to put the best people in the right positions.
1 reply
Yes, it’s an exercise in risk management. Putting VFR helicopter traffic in close proximity to civilian airliner traffic is risky. If the Army determines these training flights are required it should assume the risk, not pass it around to others not involved.
Perhaps I am missing something here. I thought Trump said DEI was an issue that resulted in the air traffic controller shortage, thus the system wasn’t up to providing separation standards for Bravo Airspace. Thus, that caused the midair. He wasn’t pointing a finger at DEI in the helicopter. I could be wrong. Right or wrong, we all know there is a continuing critical shortage of air traffic controllers. As to DCA tower staffing at the time of the midair, the NTSB will sort that out for us.
3 replies
Putting the DEI discussion to one side, here in Salt Lake City, UT we have a large military helicopter fleet but they’re located at U42 about 10 miles south of the main KSLC airport and well below class Bravo approaches/departures. There is a large fleet of Utah Air National Guard refueling aircraft at KSLC and they mix in well with the larger commercial traffic. Keeping the helicopters at a GA airport and out of the fast-moving commercial traffic seems logical. I’ve read that much of the DC helicopter traffic primary purpose was for providing VIP shuttle service. If that’s the case shut it down and use Uber.
Any time any politician throws around “DEI” as a cause or contributing factor to one thing or another, they’re using it for political purposes and nothing else. In any case, DEI certainly wouldn’t be a cause for the controller shortage - that’s more a funding matter than anything else.
I believe the DEI comment was directed at the FAA in regard to ATC hiring being restricted by the preference for DEI candidates instead of qualified applicants. When qualified candidates are excluded due to the preference for those who meet DEI checklists, the washout rate rises and desperately needed ATC slots go unfilled. Trump did do a poor job of conveying that.
Well, I’m glad you’re on Paul, you’ve not lost your signature way of cutting through the noise and reminding folks that being open-minded doesn’t mean losing your sense of direction.
As so often with Trump critics, people need to look beyond the media filter. Fact is, the FAA and the US military have in recent years made a very public showing of recruiting and promoting certain groups of people that otherwise would have not cut it. No greater examples of this are the drag shows used in military recruiting and the FAA’s public announcement that it was seeking job applicants with mental issues, including as ATCs. Their chickens have now come home to roost.
Her backseat aviator ejected properly and survived. Kara ejected after the plane crossed below parallel […]
According to Wiki, the Guy In Back triggered the ejection sequence which automatically fires the rear seat first - I don’t suppose you’d want the rear seat to fire while the pilot’s seat might still be in your flight path.
I wonder who has the primary responsibility for ejecting. Does the GIB have much to do during the landing? It would seem that he could be primed to fire the seats, lightening the pilot’s workload.
Great to hear you again, Paul.
The comments here for me generally reflect my point that because of the worsening tribal nature of people and politics today, the example of using the bell curve to better explain how humans differently demonstrate skill and effort isn’t understood.
Those in tribal mode lack in critical thinking because it is much more fulfilling emotionally to cite the one law-breaking immigrant, the one pilot, the one controller, the one accident, etc. for support of their rightousness that obscures the bell curve and wrongly applies the exceptions as the rule.
Hope you’re well and enjoying ‘retirement’!
Good article Paul, being opened mind is a plus for understanding the facts. Regarding female pilots, there good ones and bad ones same for male pilots. Regarding lower standards for female pilots going through pilot training, I know the real story because I was a flight instructor for those female going through Navy flight training. My squadron was one designated to train female pilots. I can attest there were different standards for female pilot and male pilots.
" The lawsuit by 1,000 people passed over for controller jobs after training for those jobs to enable DEI quotas is likewise a fact. So, too, is the Supreme Court finding that DEI quotas are illegal. DEI IS reverse discrimination to achieve artificial goals … an extreme form of affirmative action."
95% correct. My only issue is with the term “reverse discrimination”. There is no “reverse discrimination”. There’s is only “discrimination”.
3 replies
Another unintended consequence of DEI is Loss of trust. I worked in a LARGE bank, with a coworker whose MBA was from Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern U. He was Black. And fully qualified. He could feel the vibe when he entered a room or met with someone “Is this guy qualified or is he an Affirm Action hire?”
Using any hiring basis other than best person for the job results in suspicion of the whole sector or employer, and loss of business.
And one other small irrelevant tidbit: my flight instructor, Mary Jayne Smith, was too short to be a stewardess, her dream job. So she said, screw that, I’ll just become a pilot. She needed 2 pillows on the seat to fly, one to boost her high enough in the seat to see, and one behind her back so she could reach the pedals. She was a top notch teacher. And big hair, Dolly Parton style, de rigeur for the 1970s.
Operating at night with a 200 foot ceiling seems crazy. Hopefully congress critters will no longer have this taxi service. FAA rules state that towers below 200 feet do not even need lights. With turbulence, etc, etc etc, possible, 200 ft. max ceiling at night is where any reasonable pilot should not be.
I can live with that statement, Tristar. What I meant was that – unlike the days when blacks were blatantly discriminated against – DEI is now discriminating against white folks OR the larger part of the population (the freckle faced types) vying for the openings. Either way – as you say – it’s discrimination. That was my point.
I know people who went into ATC jobs and retired younger than airline pilots. I don’t know anything more about it than that but given the amount of money they make and the retirement benefits they get after, I can’t imagine why there’s an ATC shortage? In that regard, I agree with the President … DEI plays a part in it … until now. I have no problem with a small amount of ‘upward mobility’ positions being held back to attempt to provide opportunities for a few exceptional people. But when the bulk or all positions have to meet a DEI litmus test vs letting merit decide the cut … NO WAY! It’s discrimination and that’s why the Supreme Court ruled against it.
1 reply
The industry has always had biased hiring and training practices. The flavor changes throughout the decades. I haven’t seen much of a meritocracy. The idea that DEI has no consequences or that a human can operate without bias is of course, bias itself. Bias is unavoidable.
This helicopter crew voluntarily accepted responsibility of aircraft separation twice. When DCA ATC told them to avoid the jet by going behind it (17 seconds before impact), they failed to do that as well.
In my recurrent training I did hours of sexual harassment training. My employer sent an email this weekend about pictures for Women’s History Month and Black History month sponsored events.
If I want to learn about helicopter routes and procedures near my airport, I must do that myself.
1 reply
Wow. Maybe let the investigation take place first before placing blame.
A fair point to ponder, Bruce F. The CW2 woulda been in the left seat with a view of the airliner’s lights but obviously didn’t see it because they both must have been looking at and focusing on the departing airliner and not the CRJ.
So good to hear from Paul. Whatever the merits or horrors of DEI, it has no place in this story at this time. Using a tragedy to promote one’s agenda on reversing diversity, equity and inclusion efforts is despicable. Why is it that there are never any questions about whether a white male’s errors are due to his having been advanced by virtue of his gender and race over other more qualified people who happened to be women or people of color?
1 reply
DEI is just identity politics--group think. As for the FAA , president Obama changed the hiring rules. The FAA was under pressure to diversify the overwhelmingly "white" workforce and began screening applicants using a biographical test. Only after passing this test were they tested on competency. The FAA is being sued under a class action law suit. Link to suit: https://simpleflying.com/faa-air-traffic-controller-applicants-lawsuit/.
I would like to hear from actual ATC controllers what changes they actually need. Equality not Equity....
BobD, you’ve nailed it. This tragedy should be about understanding what went wrong and how to prevent it from happening again, not about pushing political agendas. The fact that DEI gets dragged into the conversation only when a woman or person of color is involved says a lot. If errors made by white male pilots aren’t automatically questioned as a result of their gender or race, why should it be any different here? Let’s focus on the facts, not convenient scapegoats.
I think the first thing we should do is remove all the boxes on forms that have you check a box declaring your color. If color doesn’t matter, why is that box even there?
1 reply
We are witnessing in a few short weeks a conservative wokeness and right-wing DEI hypocrisy with the purging of anyone who is not loyal and does not bend the knee to trump. Republicans brazenly are exercising their own version of DEI and nepotism - as if nepotism justifiably is ok, but not DEI initiatives.
Also down the flightpath this nonsense about the horror of DEI initiatives reveals a deliberate smoke screen to obscure the project 2025 co-option of the administrative state - and its direct affect on aviation to come.
How the nation including the pilot community is still so blind to the rope-a-dope that is trump’s favorite trick is pathetic and dangerously regressive.
Long ago I was observing a check ride after we finished the avionics test flight I was on board the commercial Hercules airfreighter for.
One checkee was doing a NDP approach, IIRC to 600 feet and a mile - when blind pulled away runway was not in sight.
He was a mile abeam it.
A very capable F/O in the third seat tried to give him a clue by asking him where he was, checkee just pointed to instruments and carried on.
(I did not understand what he did, from my seat at the navigator table well behind him.)
[The operator was using relatively inexperienced pilots in the third seat which has limited duties in the Herc - a small overhead panel. But the failed checkee - a male person - had been an instructor for a flying school!
OTOH, the F/O was an ace, became captain far earlier than typical.]
I’ve filled out a lot of forms over a fairly long life and don’t think I’ve ever seen one requesting color, other than the forms that have to help caucasians understand the term. I’ve never seen one with black, brown, beige, etc as an information category. I’m not saying that race (color) doesn’t matter, it’s obvious by the amount of racism we see in America today that is does matter. If you doubt me I can give you the name of a couple hunting forums with a general discussion (political discussion) forum where racism is displayed frequently, often daily. What I’m saying is that it shouldn’t matter. It’s because it does that DEI type programs, not quota programs, are necessary. Just one man’s opinion, but I think it’s a bit disingenuous to believe that all people, regardless of race, gender and orientation, have the same opportunity for all the same jobs. I think they should. You may disagree.
1 reply
I must be misreading your post. It seems like you’re saying that the bulk of Army aviation or Air Traffic Controller positions have to " meet a DEI litmus test vs letting merit decide the cut."
I’ve not seen any job placement statistics, but I don’t think that is accurate. I could be wrong though.
Some points I wish to make.
So great to hear from Mr. Paul Bertorelli. You are the reason I started reading AVweb. You used to make me laugh. Not today though.
DEI as an ethical principal, is without question the core of our cultural American identity. After all, it’s in the first sentence of the second paragraph of the declaration of independence. As a practical policy of government, it is an abject failure and a mere political football.
As an LT-LT-IR-PP and aviation fanatic, I love to read the comments from so many highly intelligent, highly experienced and highly competent aviation professionals. Men and women who understand the true nature of what it means to take a man-made machine operated by a man-made man (or woman) into an environment where the margin of error is so slim for ensuring a safe flight outcome, it’s almost nonexistent. Put simply, it takes _ _lls. To state that recruiting and training should be based on merit only, is a laudable (admirable) and a logical goal. But imagine it’s YOUR job to choose who has merit and will be hired and trained. You must overcome unconscious bias, cultural bias (both societal and corporate), and your own preconceived conscious biases (you are a professional after all). Not so simple huh? Your choices could affect or even cause an outcome not unlike this tragic event if you choose wrong. As someone who has had some experience of hiring, training and managing people I would say, NO. If there is any logic or reason that goes into hiring, training and managing people to perform a job so illogical and unreasonable as aviator, it’s probably a small percentage. IMHO
I wish to thank all the military pilots, controllers and technicians (both current and former) who may read this, for your service. Thank you, thank you, thank you! Including the three who tragically lost their lives, training to keep our country safe and free.
Surprised to read about Kara Hultgreen incident. Wanted to bring IMHO some insight on what was going on in that time frame. I was a C2A instructor with students trying to get them carrier qualified at the same time Kara was out there trying to do the same thing. Well back then in the Navy women were not allowed to fly carrier based combat fixed wing aircraft–only exception was flying the C2A. The COD “carrier onboard delivery” cargo to the carrier. I also believe women were not flying operational combat jets for the air force or marine corp back then either. Well Kara was a naval aviator and graduated jet flight school. She landed a T2C and A4 jets on a carrier as part of her training. Once graduated she could not fly carrier naval fighter aircraft. So some women became T2C or A4 flight instructors. Others flew naval corporate jets. Some went to fly the EA6B land based. I believe that is what Kara did.
So in September 1991 the Navy had a big party in Las Vegas called Tail Hook ( they have it every year until then). Unfortunately a female helo pilot was sexually assaulted. Big dumpster fire. A lot of heads rolled in the Navy. So why was Kara put into that position back then? Political reasons. In the Navy’s infinite wisdom they decided to put women in combat carrier based jets so they would be the “first” and try to distance themselves from the Tail Hook incident. I believe they were in such a rush they picked Kara and the other woman because they already graduated naval jet flight school. I believe that is were the rub lies on them being pushed to the head of the line. As for her getting extra flight instruction above and beyond. Well guess what. Pretty much all student Naval pilots will get some extra instruction if they are struggling with an aspect in training ie… extra flight time or sim time etc… but to a point. Back then there was discrimination and it was not right. I believe we have come a long way since then.
Politics aside. Please. I can’t speak for anyone else here, but when I had 450 hours total time, I had no business flying into those conditions as PIC. I had such supervised training conditions, I simply didn’t have the experience to recognize and prioritize threats. I think most of us learn TEM from vast experience and dumb mistakes we learn from flying the line or mission assigned. I might be a slow learner, but I tend to remember the egregious errors I’ve made, don’t repeat them, try to pass them on to my FO’s, and that simply takes experience far more than 500 hours. The notion of absolving ATC by "traffic in sight’ needs to go away as well. VFR departures by helicopters at my own base has caused me several TA’s and at least on RA they depart between active runways as we are cleared to an RNAV waypoint simultaneously. “See and avoid” was appropriate in the 70’s, it sounds logical, but it’s just legal jargon now. How the heck can I see a departing chopper with a 15 degree nose up deck angle at 500ft agl in a 321 with a chopper departing between parallel runways on a VFR clearance? Rules for VFR helicopter operations at major airports need to change.
2 replies
Hahah. You might read The Declaration and The Constitution before you claim boogieman 2025.
Thanks, Russ. More of this caliber of Guest Blog will go a long way toward ameliorating the damage to AvWeb’s reputation from last week’s “blog”. (Was that only a week ago?) Bertorelli is the closest thing we have to Bax these days, and I miss them both terribly.
Apparently, we have a lot of blind men, and “DEI” is the elephant. It is merely the latest in a long line of “Fair Hiring”, “Affirmative Action”, and many other well-intentioned attempts to mitigate the effects of cronyism in government hiring. It won’t be the last.
In a fair society, government jobs would go to those who are the best suited to be successful at them, since that is best for the society. We’ve never had that, due to ignorance, fear, and greed by those with the power to do the hiring. DEI says nothing about the results of employment efforts; it addresses the candidate pool from which you pluck your new hire. As long as you can prove that your cohort met the guidelines for “open-mindedness”, you are free to hire nothing but left-handed, one-eyed, ass-kissers, as long those were the actual and documented criteria for that federal job. But you’d better be able to prove that was the case. If not, you will have a different part of the legal system up in your grill.
All DEI requires is that your pool of applicants must be sufficiently diverse in the first place. It’s all about the group you start with, not the end results. Does that make it harder for Pussy Galore to hire gorgeous young women to fly formation over Ft. Knox. Perhaps, as it should. But she wasn’t the National Guard, or the FAA.
From an article in Barrons:
" Air-Traffic Controllers Make $158,000 a Year. Why There Is Still a Shortage?"
“Despite high average pay of $158,000 for fully certified controllers, slow hiring combined with a wave of retirees have driven the shortage.”
“Nearly 80% of the busiest control towers in the U.S. were staffed below the threshold at which the Federal Aviation Administration prioritizes placement of controllers at that facility…”
“Budget constraints and hiring setbacks have exacerbated the problem. The 2019 government shutdown along with training pauses during the Covid-19 pandemic contributed to the number of fully certified controllers falling from around 11,800 in 2012 to the current 10,800. To be fully staffed, some 14,300 certified controllers are needed…”
“… only about 60% of new hires make the cut. “The other 40% are removed, resign, or remain in training”
“To get accepted into the FAA’s training academy in Oklahoma City, applicants must pass an assessment test, as well as drug testing, a personality test, and a medical and physical exam. They must also undergo fingerprinting and a federal background test. Once they graduate from the academy, their starting salary is $60,000 on average.”
“An accelerated pension schedule makes them eligible for full benefits at any age after[ 25 years of service versus 30 years for most civilian government workers.”
1 reply
Fshaw, actually, I’m old. It is probable that I see more medical forms these days than anything else, and I do understand that knowing someone’s race could be important in that situation.
My favorite ATC traffic callout of airliners when out bugs-smashing VFR…after confirming visual, ATC’s “maintain visual separation”…really? if that airliner wants to hit me, they will, going 2-3x faster, climbing 3-4x greater and much bigger. though I realize I’m harder to see than they are.
Sorry for those inconvenienced, but I no longer play and let ATC maintain IFR separation and just monitor ATC freqs to listen to confirm being tracked and when being called as traffic. Last straw was getting pestered flight following with departure for hand flying instead of GPS coupled autopilot and a bit later a Lear climbing towards me called an RA as I looked down his intakes…ATC “sorry, forgot about him”
Of course no reasonable person is opposed to eliminating bias and discrimination. But the problem is that DEI is /by design/ biased and discriminatory.
The problem is that DEI does NOT provide for equal opportunity. If you have two equally qualified candidates, then why not flip a coin? Why discriminate based on race? Discrimination based on race is WRONG. The solution to past discrimination is to STOP discriminating based on race!
You’re right, but some people just constantly ignore the context and twist everything President Trump says.
That was a long time ago. In the Hamas pogrom, the all female intelligence unit closest to the border was left without weapons, and their reports of increased enemy activity – what they were there to monitor – laughed at.
Whole unit was killed or captured – held hostage for 400 odd days.
The largely male infantry took two hours to start to respond to the attack.
Time flies, the first Gulf War (1990-1991) was a long time ago, kids born then in their 30s now. With different views on chivalry.
We have come a long way from the days when “pilot error” was declared over wrecks still smoking. We have come to understand that hunting for single errors usually won’t result in a useful result as it is chains of errors that make wrecks. Therefore it makes sense to explore the whole chain which might reveal deeper-lying reasons for the setup and/or actions that created the risk. In the case at hand it might look obvious that the helo pilot accepted a clearance for visual separation and was unable to execute it but a detailed explanation should reveal clues as to why visual separation did not work, why the clearance was given and whether the rules that allowed them might be based on wrong assumptions.
A few things:
Visual separation: Any time visual separation is used in an area with multiple aircraft around, there is a possibility that the pilot involved will acquire the wrong aircraft. Like that’s never happened before? It doesn’t automatically make the pilot some kind of natural-born fool, “DEI hire”, or any other aspersive characterization. Given that if the helo crew had been looking at the right aircraft they presumably wouldn’t have hit it, it seems like that’s a good place to start. We’re human. It happens. Look for ways to improve procedures instead of beating up the pilot.
Altitude: From an ATC standpoint, nobody in their right mind is going to count on a displayed 100 foot altitude difference being enough to let targets merge. With 100 foot display resolution, 200 feet and 300 feet could be 249 feet and 251 feet in reality. These aircraft needed some daylight between horizontal positions, which is likely what the helo crew would have done if they saw the right jet coming, and what ATC was trying to do with the “pass behind” instruction after the conflict alert went off. As the jet was on a visual approach, their altitude was not constrained to anything in particular. A nominal 3 degree approach path would have had the jet at about 250 feet at the east bank of the river descending to 50 feet on the west side: whether the helo was at 150, 200, or 250 feet, lateral separation was needed. Based on the crew’s acceptance of visual, the controller thought this conflict was fixed, right up until it wasn’t. Focusing on altitude is a bit of a red herring: the needed solution was to not be in the same geographic place at the same time.
Tower staffing: it’s perfectly normal for various positions to be combined or decombined based on the judgement of the supervisor in charge about traffic levels, the experience of the controllers on duty, weather conditions, training in progress, etc, etc. Having positions split has its own overhead - there’s a coordination workload when split that isn’t there when working combined. Having HC/LC combined 45 minutes before the “normal” HC closing time doesn’t stun me at all. Assuming that there was some staffing deficiency affecting this case is premature at best. Let the investigation evaluate that in the context of this accident - which in no way negates concern about overall staffing issues in the ATC system.
“Military training flight!” - Yes, doing exactly the same thing as any other helicopter following published helicopter route 1 to route 4. Would there be less consternation if this had involved some civil operator following the existing-for-decades route structure? “Should these helicopter routes be where they are?” is a perfectly reasonable discussion to have, but the military nature of this particular operation seems irrelevant.
Trump attributed his DEI comments on the accident to “common sense”, or (loosely translated) “I’m making it up.” I eagerly await his analysis of the Philadelphia Lear crash. Should save NTSB a lot of time and money looking at facts and evidence.
They’re still having echoes of the 1981 strike - the replacements had a retirement wave 20 years ago, and here we are 20 years later. “Authorized staffing” numbers can also keep FAA from hiring to replace retiring controllers until they actually leave a vacant position, even though training can take 3-4 years to complete. They’re constantly playing catch-up.
Other than Trump pulling DEI claims out of his posterior for political reasons, there is no evidence at all of any role for DEI in this accident. Tower staffing seems reasonable for that time of night, and the particular positions open or closed are at the discretion of the tower supervisor. I’m 100% sure that the NTSB will look at every bit of that to see if the configuration was driven by any kind of shortage. Tower radar displays all have aural alarms backing up visual alerts because tower controllers generally focus on looking outside: that’s what they’re supposed to be doing, not staring at the radar.
Was that military or civilian training, and for fixed-wing or helicopter? The answer does matter. I do not have military flight training, but everyone I know who has been through it has said that it is much different than civilian flight training, and military flight time is generally counted at 1.5-2x civilian flight time due to the intensity of the training. Similarly, helicopter flight training (military or civilian) is a more precise level of flight training (where you are physically manipulating the controls every second of flight, as opposed to fixed-wing where you can take you hands and feet off the controls for several seconds without anything bad typically happening), and the FAA recognizes that with the flight time requirements for advanced ratings.
2 replies
I don’t agree man. I was put in 1900 left seat with 4,500 TT and 350 hours in the right seat. No autopilot 14-16 leg days. I learned more about flying low in bad weather, low vis and icing in the NE to the deep south than any quality of intense training could have taught me in my first 1,000 hrs in that left seat. No one knows “ATIS might lie to you” until it does. Training is just that. Intense or not. DCA has always been a goat rope as has Bogotá, you can train for it, but you don’t learn it without experience. It’s usually a cakewalk, but do it enough and everybody gets their turn in the barrel. That’s when the learning takes place. 500 Hours mil or Riddle training? I wouldn’t put my loved ones in the back of a C-172 with them, unless they were the type that knew that didn’t know that there’s a lot they don’t know and had a healthy respect for that lack of knowledge. We just have different opinions.
Paul, I feel that everyone is misinterpreting the President and SecDef’s words a bit as they both have reiterated several times now that they weren’t saying that DEI had any specific link to an individual in this accident. What they are saying and I absolutely agree with is, was this caused by a lack of staffing due to DEI policies and how many other close calls have there been because of it.
More information will come out about those specifically involved but at the end of the day, the most secure airspace in the world just suffered the worst aviation accident in a generation at the tail end of an FAA that is more worried about the color of your skin versus the individuals actual qualifications. That is a 100% undeniable fact and I feel that this President is pissed off by it, as he should be.
Marz, let’s be real here, blaming DEI for this tragedy is a lazy scapegoat with no evidence to back it up. The FAA’s staffing crisis wasn’t caused by diversity programs but by years of budget cuts, retirements, and poor management. Pointing fingers at ‘skin color’ instead of actual hiring bottlenecks is a fear-driven narrative that’s designed to distract us from solving the real problem. DEI isn’t about putting unqualified people in jobs, it’s about finding talent that the old, exclusionary systems overlooked.
If anything, this outdated ‘merit’ excuse is a smokescreen to protect the same power structures that have caused stagnation in the first place. And this fear of ‘losing ground’ is nothing new. Just like Jim Crow laws emerged to keep white dominance intact after Reconstruction, today’s anti-DEI crusade is a reaction to a changing, diversifying nation. Politicians know this and are using that fear to score political points, just as they did back then. If we don’t recognize that, we’ll be stuck repeating the same cycles of discrimination and exclusion under a different name, and aviation, like many industries, will suffer the consequences
3 replies
The lazy scapegoat is in the white house. Conclusions before all the facts in. Shaming women aviators as well as “minority” aviators. Shame.
And the FAA is broken because Congress is broken. Unfortunately, Congress is broken because the electorate keeps electing the same type of people who broke it in the first place.
But that’s neither here nor there, since it doesn’t address the human factors that lead to this mid-air. Clearly the situation around DCA and the helicopter routes have been like this for a while, so what factors on this particular night lead to the mid-air, and what could have been done differently. Those are the questions to be answered here.
I think you’re still missing the point. Go watch all related pressers immediately following the accident and how many times does the administration have to say they aren’t aware of any specific deficiencies?
This is a much larger issue than those involved in this accident. Instead of being worried about the color of an individuals skin, or their gender, why are we not prioritizing investing in the ATC modernization and focusing on hiring the best individuals for the job instead of filling quotas?
Pro-DEI individuals completely miss the point. I want the BEST individual for the job, regardless of skin color or gender. Now people are realizing that when you go so aggressively in this direction, when people see a minority on an ivy league campus, in the cockpit, or the control tower, people will question why they are there and that is ridiculously unfair to quality candidates that deserve to be there.
1 reply
Disclosure! I am a retired Commissioned Officer Army Aviator. There is something missing in every comment here so far. This female Commissioned Officer Aviator had 450 hours total flight time. That’s about 200 in Initial Rotary Wing Flight Training, and only about 50 hours a year after that as a Reserve Commissioned Officer aviator. That 50 hours a year is about the MINIMUM flight time that a Reserve Commissioned Officer aviator could get and be considered “current.” She MAY have gotten some flight simulator time in addition, that is not stated. But the US Army considers Commissioned Officer aviators as managers first and aviators second, as opposed to Warrant Officer aviators who are aviators first. We sometimes said, in jest, that every Commissioned Officer aviator needed to fly with a Warrant Officer aviator to keep him out of trouble, and that two Commissioned Officer aviators flying together was an accident looking for a place to happen. A successful Commissioned Officer aviator in the Army needs to have much better flying skills than the average Warrant Officer aviator to get any respect with regards to his/her aviator skills. Sad fact of life.
1 reply
Good point, Polkovnik … tho it was sorta mentioned glancingly in a few comments. I’ve uncovered pictures of her all dressed up in her Class A’s doing VIP duty in the white house. So that substantiates your position (and my own). Maybe that was the purpose for the recurrency flight that night?
In the USAF, the same problem occurs. They want every officer to train to ultimately be the Chief of Staff even pilots who don’t give a damn about such things. And they wonder why there’s a pilot / retention problem. I think it’s time for ALL of the military to reexamine this posture and do something about it. One commenter above moaned about all the “extra” jobs they expected the aviators to be doing; same problem / different flavor. In the end, there’s no way a low time pilot can retain their skills without sufficient flying time. Further – in THIS case – I’m sure she was nervous trying to pass her check ride?
Curious … what’s your position on a regular officer being evaluated by a Warrant officer? Is that a problem in the Army?
Well, there ya have it. We should dismiss the “obsessive, time consuming and costly NTSB investigation results to figure it mostly out,” because in LarryS’s expert opinion he assigns “70% of the blame on the helo crew and Army training SOP. The other 30% goes to ATC.”
Better yet, let’s just save shitload of expense and effort to investigate accidents by embracing his political blathering and asking HIM to render his opinions on the “fault” he assigns to ALL accidents. That oughta learn 'em.
1 reply
FAA ATC classes over the past few years have been unable to be filled. A leading reason for this was qualified candidates being turned away because they didn’t fit the identity required for the DEI-mandated quotas. This has been a contributor to the FAA controller shortage nationwide, and has been a problem at DCA for some time.
Highlights from a recent Washington Times article:
During the Obama and Biden administrations, the FAA prioritized hiring more minorities and those with disabilities for key positions, including those in air traffic control.
In 2022, the FAA pledged to diversify its workforce by rethinking its hiring practices, and administration officials assigned long-term goals to amplify diversity, accessibility and LGBTQ issues.
The FAA’s focus on diversity began under the Obama administration. In 2013, the FAA started using a “biographical assessment” to increase the hiring of preferred minority racial groups at air traffic control centers. The assessment asked applicants about their participation in school sports and the age at which they started earning money.
The assessment disqualified more experienced, qualified applicants, many of whom were Air Traffic Collegiate Training graduates or had other critical experience, such as a pilot’s license.
More than 3,000 rejected applicants filed a lawsuit claiming discrimination. The FAA dropped the biographical assessment in 2018 after Congress enacted a law banning its use.
As late as last year, the FAA was recruiting those with targeted disabilities, including hearing, vision, missing extremities, partial paralysis, complete paralysis, epilepsy, severe intellectual disability, psychiatric disability and dwarfism.
Avweb has reported on the increased number of close calls for several years, and stated in an article from Nov. 2023, A few days after a damning report from the National Airspace System Safety Review Team essentially told the FAA that the clock is ticking on a major aviation catastrophe in the U.S. It additionally stated newly-mandated FAA standards “canceled the interview guarantee for AT-CTI grads and decreed that selection for Oklahoma City be based solely on the applicants’ psychological profiles. The advantage for degree holders, the administration decided, presented an unfair barrier to Americans who historically have lower participation in higher education. It was about leveling the playing field.”
One of the main goals of DEI programs has been to level the playing field. Turning away qualified controller candidates has leveled the playing field; leveled it right into the Potomac.
Many in aviation have seen this coming for a decade, but many haven’t been able or willing to identify the causal factors. It’s pretty hard to not see some connection of the recent fatal crashes with the government’s push for DEI mandates and the FAA controller shortage and training reductions.
Sorry, but saying this and many other recent close calls not being affected by DEI is putting your head in the sand. Aviation has had a long history of writing new regulations in blood when people refused to admit the actual causes of accidents. Removing these DEI requirements will be the next reg caused by deaths. In this case, 67 lives were the cost for a political grandstand. I pray that number doesn’t increase further in the process the unraveling the rest of these disastrous identity-based requirements.
As a side not, I would include article links and proper punctuation for the quotes listed here, but AvWeb automatically flags those due to their community standards. Moderators, if I anm unable to include links and quotes from official sources (media articles, FAA, NTSB, etc.), how exactly should I properly do this?
2 replies
Typically, ALL training after Initial Entry Rotary Wing Qualification and ALL flight evaluations are done by Warrant Officer pilots. WO pilots are THE Professional Pilot Corps of the US Army. And I totally agree about Air Force Pilots as well. I have many friends who retired from AD, ANG or AF Res when they had 20 years so that they could concentrate on flying elsewhere. A lot of experience lost when it could have been passed on to others.
Affirmative Action, EEO, DEI … ALL forms of social engineering are wrong, and DISGUSTING, to use the word you seem so enamoured with. The only way to ensure the best qualified people get the jobs is through merit-based selection.
Next time you need surgery, report back on how your Affirmative Action surgeon did.
The location of the crash is obvious. The jet was on or very close to the VASI glide path. The helo violated the altitude and flight path for the route.The route and altitude are not optional, they are MANDATORY. Even at the wrong altitude if the helo had been on the proper flight path the collision would not have occurred.
By your support of DEI and your rants against Pres. Trump you have established yourself as a strong candidate for a padded cell.
FAA controller classes have been unable to be filled because of racial requirements. There’s an article in the Washington Times from a week ago that highlights this.
In 2013, under the Obama administration, the FAA started using a biographical assessment to increase the hiring of preferred minority racial groups at air traffic control centers.This automatically disqualified experienced and qualified applicants, with many of them being Air Traffic Collegiate graduates or those who had a pilot’s license. More than 3,000 rejected applicants filed a lawsuit claiming discrimination.
The FAA has stated they are about 3000 controllers short and are unable to meet recruitment goals still. If only they had hired those applicants turned away because they didn’t fit the racial requirements to fill the quota mandated. Even as late as 2023 the FAA held a three-day symposium that trained FAA employees to understand the impact of diversity, equity, inclusion. I guess we now know the biggest impact was worsening the shortage of qualified controllers.
1 reply
The moderators must have woken up on the extra sensitive side today. I’ve had two posts automatically flagged for being offensive. One of them directly quoted an AvWeb article about contributing causes of the FAA controller shortage and another mentioned a study by the NTSB. How exactly is anyone supposed to attribute credit from other sources without using quotation marks or linking an article?
Maybe try a switch to decaf instead of CBD kombucha…
1 reply
After the investigations are finished and the probable cause is released, then DEI or blame can start. Conjecture is difficult to decimate when seeking the truth.
The point of DEI efforts is to expand the applicant pool, not hire unqualified people. I realize that’s not as outrage-sexy in MAGA world, but that’s what it’s about. And if you want to give the impression that everybody has an equal shot at applying for aviation jobs, El Caudillo de Mar-a-Lago mouthing off about DEI being some kind of factor in a fatal accident with absolutely no evidence of that isn’t going to do it. FAA training slots aren’t going begging, no matter who they hire or how they got there, and everyone has to pass the same training program. It’s hard, a lot of trainees wash out or get reassigned to slower facilities if they can’t certify at a busier place, and training just takes a while. There are some new simulation capabilities coming on line that should help shorten the training time - and to get max throughput you want an applicant pool that is as broad as possible. That’s what DEI is supposed to accomplish.
Just a timely, newsworthy offering to any controllers that may have lingering questions of their value and worth in their workplace in the tower, no doubt in direct reference to the recent tragedy, uttered just moments ago by the Great One: Word for word in response to a question about the 19 - 24 year old kids that are now working with Musk in DOGE…
" The kids now working in the White House (going over to DOGE) are smart people, unlike what they do in the control towers where we need smart people where we should put some of these DOGE people in the control towers where we were putting people in the control towers that were actually intellectually deficient, it was actually one of the qualifications for the job is you could be intellectually deficient."
So grateful that he cleared that up. Always helpful to pinpoint a problem, saves time and money.
Dave (Vayuwings), you nailed it. The Great One’s comments about “intellectually deficient” controllers aren’t just offensive, they’re fear-based propaganda at its finest. The playbook is simple: create a boogeyman, blame minorities and women, stir division, and protect the same old power structures. DEI isn’t a problem, it’s a solution, bringing in smart, capable people that the exclusionary systems ignored for too long.
Now, the FAA’s staffing crisis wasn’t caused by “deficient” hires, it’s the result of budget cuts, poor leadership, and a failure to modernize. Trump’s rhetoric echoes the Jim Crow era, when scapegoating was used to block progress and cement control. If we keep letting this divisive nonsense shape policy, we’ll see the same tragic consequences-reduced opportunities, stagnation, and preventable disasters.
James, having qualified air traffic controllers is as essential as fuel in the tank. Without them, the whole system sputters. Safety and efficiency must be the guiding stars, no question. But instead of seeing diversity as something steering us off-course, we should see it as a co-pilot that can cruise right alongside good ol’ merit-based hiring. If the FAA fine-tunes its hiring, speeds up training without cutting corners, and stays tuned in to folks who know the ropes, we can fill those controller seats while keeping both safety and fairness in check. Let’s aim for a win-win: skilled controllers at the helm, ranks filled to meet demand, modern equipment to support them, and representation that reflects the diverse skies we share—all working together for safer, smoother flying for everyone.
DIE is simply illegal racism. Its practitioners vociferously condemn their enemies for anything that can be connected by any shred to racism, then claim moral superiority when engaged in the exact same behavior by another name. They argue that standards are not being relaxed, even as LA burns to the ground and the FAA states that they want to hire people with mental and emotional disorders. In a safety critical industry like aviation, that this is even a topic of discussion is appalling. If this weren’t a political favorite it never would have been allowed. If you don’t hire for merit, you don’t get merit.
2 replies
Questions:
Why was the directional portion of the helo’s flight path very erratic vs flying the published helo route putting them exactly in the center of the river head on to incoming airline traffic?
Why and what prompted the helo pilot to request visual separation when looking at a conga line of airliners in their collective faces?
Why did the controller not direct the helo for an immediate left turn when it was obvious the two aircraft where on a collision course long enough to trigger CA warnings and allow for two controller questions asking if traffic in sight with two wierd helo responses asking again for visual separation yet saying traffic in sight?
Regardless if the legal responsibility for visual traffic separation is now on the helo crew because they requested it…with the controller approving it…why would the controller even allow any potential traffic conflict to take place in the middle of the river down the extended centerline of 33…knowing the CRJ is belly up on a circle to land visual approach that he requested the CRJ to perform?
As a side not, I would include article links […] how exactly should I properly do this?
Flagged comments will be published after an editor has vetted the links. Regular posters earn badges which are accompanied by increased privileges, including, (at some point), having links go through without being flagged. In the meantime, I’d suggest posting them as a reply to your original post. That ‘links’ reply will be flagged for a spell, but rest of want to say will get through.
The “moderators” are a bunch of 1’s and 0’s and lots of comments get flagged and hidden by the software itself - without human interaction. Generally, Russ invites commenters who had content automatically hidden to reach out to him. He will then fix it.
A great way to fix computer and laptop issues is to pour a nice hot cup of coffee into your keyboard right between the letters Z and T.
Cream and sugar accellerate the fix. 
Paul, welcome back. We miss you.
Flying on privilege, not merit? That is the system DEI is fixing. What you call “illegal racism” is just giving qualified people, who have been ignored for years, a fair shot. Take a look at history. Black pilots like the Tuskegee Airmen had to fight for basic recognition of their skill, and even after proving themselves in World War II, many were still denied commercial opportunities. Women like Jackie Cochran, Nancy Love, and Cornelia Fort paved the way through programs like the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP), but airlines did not start hiring female pilots until the 1970s, with pioneers like Emily Howell Warner finally breaking through.
Nobody is lowering standards. Pilots, controllers, and mechanics still have to meet the same strict requirements under FAA regulations and safety protocols. DEI just makes sure talent is not overlooked because someone did not have the right connections or was not from the “usual crowd.”
If you really believe in hiring for merit, then you should support DEI. The old system was not about merit. It was about privilege. DEI ensures the best people rise based on skill, not on who had a head start.
1 reply
The 450 hour Captain was not the PIC, she was the RSP receiving instruction from the 1000 hour CW2 IP.
“The old system was not about merit. It was about privilege. DEI ensures the best people rise based on skill, not on who had a head start.”
This is an important point. I’ll just add another way to look at it…
When a minority commits a crime, does a bad thing, fails in a noticeable way, that person represents the ethos and behavior of that ENTIRE group, and therefore proves to the majority in their thinking that they are right about black people, women, gays, transgenders, liberals, atheists, immigrants, pick-a-card, any card.
But if a white, conservative, good-religious family-man commits a crime or does a bad thing, he’s just a rotten apple who their god forgives and is not representative AT ALL of all white, conservative men and women.
THAT is the institutionalized racism you seem confused about that for decades was not acknowledged by the majority, so programs like DEI were created to work for promotional representation for those living outside of ‘the club’. It has never been intended to replace or change qualifications and standards of any desired position.
DEI has therefore faced added difficulty and challenges on top of essential effort toward success from the majority who were/are driven by bias, fear and prejudice.
Some good comments and a few who understand the system better than others. During my 31 years in the FAA, all as ATC in one form or fashion, there has been a slow but steady shift in the wrong direction, and it’s all about funding. First, a controller who passes the academy in Oklahoma City would be assigned to either a control tower or center, based on their requests, their scores at the academy, and which facilities needed controllers the worst. Good scores got you a higher complexity facility. Controllers didn’t go from the academy to O’Hare or Atlanta or DCA, they started a level or so below that to get seasoning. After checking out and getting a few years experience, then bid to a higher level facility and move up. However, the FAA funds weren’t always there, due to Congress not passing a new budget so the same budget from this year gets carried over to next. So move money went away and controllers would be sent directly from the academy to a higher facility and the agency hoped they’d be able to make the grade. Many didn’t and got sent to the lower facilities, the ones they would have gone to in the beginning.
Understand that when a controller comes into a facility, they are allotted so many training hours to check out on a position, such as Clearance Delivery, Ground Control or Local Control in a tower. In the center, it’s manual/handoff position then different radar sectors, starting from the easier, less complex, ones and moving to the harder. If you don’t check out in the allotted hours, you go before a training review board who looks at your continuity of training, all your daily training reports, and interviews each trainer, the team supervisor, and the trainee. If warranted, the trainee would be assigned to a new training team with more hours, maybe 2/3 of what they started with, with the hope the trainee could check out. This is called a recycle. Now add in the DEI push a dozen years ago and the check out rate through the academy went down. The controllers who made it through the academy had lower average scores, and had a harder time checking out in the field. Recycles were frequent and many were sent to lower facilities. I know someone who is overseeing the academy instructors and verified what I’m saying. All of this exacerbated the staffing numbers as training slots were filled with those that couldn’t make the grade. One trainee who needs a recycle is the same as two training slots and two vacancies that weren’t filled.
All of that being said (phew), it might have played a small part in the DCA staffing that night, as I know one of the controllers at DCA and they’ve had several recent recycles and washouts. Otherwise, I’m asking the same questions the rest of you are. PAT is Priority Air Transport, which is continuity of government, so the helo was practicing transporting high-level government officials around Washington in the case of an attack on DC. That’s a pretty important function. I question why Local didn’t tell the CRJ about the helo to help situational awareness. Why didn’t local give a clock position to the helo the second time to ensure they were talking about the same target? Did the normal helo position operate the same way when separated from the fixed-wing local? Was there coordination between the two with each visual separation? I was always taught traffic for one is traffic for the other, but never had a separate position just to run helo traffic. The procedures for those two positions will be critical. And what was the local assist controller doing during all this?
We’ll just have to stay tuned and let the NTSB do its job. It is very good at digging though all the data points and getting to the bottom of the cause. If the FAA was half as good as incorporating their recommendations, we’d all be in a lot better shape, safety-wise.
Oh, I forgot to add that every controller has to pass a Class 2 physical every year, so the notion that people that are blind or have hearing problems, let alone mental issues, can be hired as controllers is ludicrous. The FAA has multiple non-controller jobs that can be handled by handicapped, and frequently are. Controllers who are in wheelchairs can still control, the same as amputees. You can get off that bandwagon now.
1 reply
The claim that DEI is a quota system is misinformation. Quotas are illegal under U.S. law, and DEI programs do not mandate hiring based on race or gender. Instead, they address barriers to ensure fair access, with hiring decisions based on merit. Goals guide outreach, not outcomes. If quotas were in use, legal challenges would be inevitable.
1 reply
Really Raf??? Every contract that I get into where public monies are involved specifically state what percentage is required of minority, gender and at times even where you live is required to be on the project for me to even be considered. This has been going on for decades under the guise of affirmative action. They just changed the identifier and they now call it DEI. Nothing has changed.
Privilege is as racist a term as any, and is used to signal moral superiority. It was invented by the people who think USAID was a great idea, and is just as corrupt. In reality the deficit experienced by many applicants has nothing to do with centuries old forced servitude but is a reflection of the failure of US education, union dominated grade schools followed by hypersensitive colleges teaching whole categories of students they are victims. The solution is, conveniently, government intervention.
Race mongers live in ancient history. They refuse to open their illogical minds to the possibility that maybe they are causing the problem. They won’t reconsider until it is their house that is burning down from incompetence and corruption, and even then odds are only 50-50. Apparently, evidence does not exist as long as you refuse to see.
1 reply
“Race mongers live in ancient history. They refuse to open their illogical minds to the possibility that maybe they are causing the problem. They won’t reconsider until it is their house that is burning down from incompetence and corruption, and even then odds are only 50-50. Apparently, evidence does not exist as long as you refuse to see.”
If this paragraph is not prophetic I don’t know what is.
Mr. Milkshake and Niio, let’s clear up a few things.
Mr. Milkshake, the percentages you’re seeing in public contracts come from affirmative action policies, not DEI. Affirmative action has been around for decades under laws like Executive Order 11246 to give underrepresented groups a shot at government-funded projects. But let’s not mix apples and oranges, affirmative action handles access, while DEI focuses on creating inclusive workplaces once folks are through the door. The name may have changed in some circles, but DEI isn’t about quotas, it’s about removing obstacles that keep people from thriving.
Niio, when it comes to privilege, it’s not about labeling folks as morally superior or inferior, it’s about recognizing the simple fact that some start the race a few steps ahead. If you’re born in a good neighborhood with well-funded schools or inherit family wealth, you’ve got a head start. Acknowledging that doesn’t mean blaming anyone, but if you ignore the starting line, you’ll never understand why some folks can’t catch up.
Calling systemic issues “ancient history” won’t fix the problem. Redlining didn’t officially end until the late 1900s, and its effects linger, underfunded schools, low homeownership, and limited economic mobility didn’t just pop up out of thin air. Blaming education without looking at the pipes behind it is like fixing a leaky roof without patching the holes. Solutions don’t come from waving off history or blaming those trying to fix it, they come from rolling up our sleeves and working on the underlying problems together.
1 reply
After reading many of the replies/comments, I don’t recall seeing any discussion of the different frequencies used VHF & UHF which didn’t allow for the individual aircraft to hear complete communication which might have enhanced the situational awareness. I know when I’m flying, listening and making that mental 3D pic of my changing environment, the more info I have, the better!
DIE is dead. It is being expunged from government and companies clinging to it will get leaned on, then prosecuted. Some are already being sued for discrimination. Funding from the USAID slush fund has been terminated. Professional proponents are about to join the ranks of the unemployed, so they need to learn to write code. Good riddance.
In closing, the mid-air collision between AA Flight 5342 and a U.S. Army Black Hawk helicopter, has prompted extensive investigations to determine its causes. While the NTSB has not yet released a final report, several contributing factors have been identified:
Altitude Deviation: Preliminary data indicates that the Black Hawk helicopter was flying at approximately 325 feet, exceeding the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) mandated maximum of 200 feet for that route. This deviation placed the helicopter in the flight path of the approaching CRJ700 aircraft.
Air Traffic Control Staffing: Reports suggest that only one air traffic controller was managing both the jet and the helicopter at the time of the collision, an arrangement described as “not normal” for that time of day at Reagan National Airport. This staffing decision may have contributed to miscommunication or oversight.
Communication and Situational Awareness: The helicopter crew was reportedly alerted twice about the approaching airliner, with the first warning issued two minutes before the collision. Despite these warnings, the collision occurred, suggesting potential issues with situational awareness or response.
In the aftermath of the accident, President Donald Trump attributed the crash to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) policies, suggesting that such initiatives may have compromised the qualifications of air traffic control personnel. However, this claim has been met with skepticism, as no concrete evidence has been presented to support the assertion that DEI policies played a role in the incident.