Continue Discussion - visit the forum 39 replies
December 2024

pilotmww

What happens if your “smart” phone battery runs out without a physical certificate on your person? I don’t know of any state BMV that does this with a drivers license.

1 reply
December 2024

Arthur_Foyt

Once it’s “digital”, then both you and the FAA lose control over it.
Nothing is cheaper, or controllable, or as maintenance free as our current printed cards.

December 2024 ▶ pilotmww

anon47172823

As of October 2024, these states have active mDL (Digital driver’s licenses) programs:

2 replies
December 2024

pilotmww

Can’t speak for other states, but I just renewed in Ohio and that option was never presented to me at the BMV office.

December 2024 ▶ anon47172823

mach0017

I suspect that those states still issue wallet card drivers licenses in addition to making them digitally available.

December 2024

Larry_S

Lemme see here … the Country is operating on a temporary budget (barely) and all sorts of other very important “issues” need attention. Meanwhile, this Representative is introducing an ‘Act’ to fix something that ain’t broken and I’ve never EVER heard any aviators moan about. Got it. There’s your problem …

1 reply
December 2024

MWSletten

Considering the possible penalties for accidentally forgetting to bring along a physical copy of your certificate, this seems like a no-brainer to me. I use an EFB to meet FAA charting requirements, why not my certificates too? I’m not taking off without charts (EFB) aboard, and if I’ve got my iPad then I’ll always have my certificates. Google’s Wallet app provides a secure and acceptable (to a growing number of government agencies) means of storing digital ID. Use the app to take a photo of the document, and you’re good to go.

2 replies
December 2024 ▶ MWSletten

PittsPilot

100% agree. This is a no-brainer. The cost and time required print and mail. A physical pilot and medical certificate is crazy in a world where credit cards, airline boarding passes, and so many other things are available at the touch of a button on your phone.

Currently, if you’re ever ramp checked and you don’t have your physical license on you, it’s a big deal and can result in major headaches for the pilot, even if that license exists and is perfectly valid.

I could see a scenario during the transition where all the luddites who want a physical a certificate could check a box and have one sent to them. But for the rest of us just give me a digital copy that I can pull up or access with a QR code anytime I need to get to it…

I just got a new rating earlier this week and had to make a note in my calendar to make sure I’d received my new pilot certificate within 60 days so that if I hadn’t I could make start making phone calls to my DPE and to the physio to start chasing someone down at the FAA to make sure they could find things and get it processed before 120 days. At which time I’d be illegal to fly unless I have the physical certificate in my hand. That feels pretty ridiculous…

1 reply
December 2024

n8274k

It would need to have all the bugs worked out, but it’s worth pursuing. I’ll send my congressman a telegram endorsing the idea. :grinning:

December 2024

rvmel

This may come as a shock, but not everyone uses their phone for “everything”! I use my phone as a phone. If you can’t remember to carry your Pilot certificate and Medical evidence, then maybe you shouldn’t be flying! These 2 items have been in my wallet for over 57 years. I don’t carry my phone everywhere. I DO carry my wallet. I fail to see the problem that needs fixing.

December 2024

gmbfly98

That is also the answer to the “why” - it costs the government money to make, print, and mail pilot certificates, so the “problem” this aims to solve is a government money issue. It has almost nothing to do with solving a problem for the pilots themselves.

It’s the same reason why the FAA recently removed the expiration date on instructor certificates. We still have to follow the same currency/renewal process, except now it’s called a “recent experience” date and we keep the same instructor certificate. That too was all about government cost savings.

December 2024 ▶ anon47172823

WBJohn

I’ve lived in Missouri for decades and never have been offered any digital license. I searched the official MO Dept of Revenue site re DL’s and there’s no mention of any digital license. Many licenses can be renewed on line, but that doesn’t make the license itself “digital”, so I’d have to dispute your including MO in that list.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ PittsPilot

joe5

What happens when your iPad or phone can’t get data? This just happened to me on my iPad. It wouldn’t load. How will you access your license under these circumstances? There are lots of dead zones out West. What then? I think this is a solution looking for a problem that doesn’t exist.

1 reply
December 2024

gmbfly98

You would store a local copy on your device.

I’m pretty neutral on the idea myself. I don’t have a problem carrying a physical pilot certificate and driver’s license, but it’s also not that big a deal to have a digital version of either or both. The only two real issues with the latter are running out of battery (and there are ways to solve that) or losing or having your phone stolen (in which case hopefully you have everything sufficiently locked down so your information can’t be stolen; but that can happen if you lose your wallet, too).

1 reply
December 2024

roganderson60

I think that us older (more mature) aviators would be more inclined to say no to the idea. The young folks will jump all over this. But then, I like a six pack best also (both kinds).

December 2024

rblevy

Additional option? Absolutely! Sole source? No, thanks.

And I do have both the hard card and electronic versions of my Delaware DL – color me a “belt and suspenders” guy for my aviation life. I’ll be writing to my reps to encourage support.

December 2024

Jimpa18

To address all the negative comments, you can treat this as an AMOC, it’s not a “problem “, it’s an alternative.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ Jimpa18

joe5

“An alternative “ for now…

December 2024

davidbunin

When my wife and I got new passports, we each took a pictures of both of them to have as a last-ditch backup, in case the actual documents ever become lost during travel. She and I both have the two passport photos in our phones. I guess I’m the only one who ever thought of it?

December 2024

mjkobb

I already have scanned copies of my documents stored electronically. I know that they do not meet the legal requirement, but they’re a backup in case I were to lose the physical one. It would be excellent to have the electronic version be a fully valid copy. If the legislation ends up having the electronic version be an additional option, I would continue to carry the physical one in addition to the electronic.

December 2024

Arthur_Foyt

Why be a pilot?
The FAA publishes your HOME address for everyone to look up, it makes you have a tracker designed so that everyone in the entire world can monitor your movements, and NOW it wants to publish your personal ID card to the world.

Excuse me, but becoming a pilot theses days is a personal security risk.

1 reply
December 2024

Brian_Garrett

Maybe, I dunno - hear me out on this…

Let’s get the medical into some format other than an obnoxious size that requires folding and going into my wallet? The FAA has that on file - why not start there? I don’t mind carrying my certificate in my wallet… I mean I’d never use it to show off or anything… right?

December 2024 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

gmbfly98

Who said it would be available “to the world”? The FAA (or any part of the government, for that matter) will not be the one storing the digital copy. It will be left up to the individual pilot as to how they want to store it digitally, or if they even want to store it digitally.

You can all read the exact proposal (it’s only 2 pages long) here: https://burchett.house.gov/sites/evo-subsites/burchett.house.gov/files/evo-media-document/BURCTN_108_xml%204.pdf

Or you can choose not to read the text and complain about a non-existant issue if that’s more enjoyable.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ WBJohn

anon47172823

It looks like Missouri started the program and then halted it for further consideration. There are several states that offer it, via an App specific to the state:

" * Missouri (MO) — Previously issued mDLs via the Missouri Mobile ID app but removed the service to look at new services and regulations. Apple Wallet status: being considered.”

Ref: 8 States Support Digital Driver's Licenses in Apple Wallet — Which States Are Next? « iOS & iPhone :: Gadget Hacks

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ gmbfly98

Arthur_Foyt

Since the FAA already broadcasts my HOME address, my last MEDICAL date, my ratings, the specifics of my airplane and it’s movement to the entire world…what makes you think it will be different this time? It will most likely be a pdf downloadable link on the airmen’s database page.

Thanks for the link and NO WHERE in the proposal does it mention document control or security.

2 replies
December 2024 ▶ MWSletten

RationalityKeith

Just don’t forget to bring you iPad/iPhone. :wink:

well, I suppose the checker could look you up if they brought their …

December 2024 ▶ anon47172823

RationalityKeith

yApple’s iPhone UI is hostile.

December 2024 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

RationalityKeith

A valid concern, thankyou.

December 2024 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

gmbfly98

I wouldn’t exactly say the FAA is “broadcasting” your pilot information. Yes, anyone can look it up, but that’s not the same as broadcasting it; someone has to go look for it first. You can also hide your aircraft movements such that your N-number is not generally available to tracking sites, and if you use 978 UAT-only, you can also hide your tail number from the ADS-B Out data itself.

I presume there is no mention of document control or security because it only says that the FAA should accept a digital form of the ID, and not how it should be stored. That, presumably, would be up to the individual pilot. Which is just a way to say that the government assumes no responsibility for the safe-keeping of the documents.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ gmbfly98

Arthur_Foyt

When you have a system powered up an sending data over the wire/air to anyone to access; it’s broadcast. I’m old enough to remember when the FAA said “just use your Social Security number” for your airmen’s certificate number…and then made those available to everyone on the world wide web as well and never “assumed” any responsibility for that either!

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ gmbfly98

RationalityKeith

Yes, travelled several hours from home recently using a new-to-me vehicle.

Realized I had not brought all charging cables from my now-spare old vehicle. Did have micro-USB to charge my old phone from my laptop computer and had wall wart for it.
But not USB-C cable for my new iPhone that has medical monitoring software, fortunately not critical but helps my health.

December 2024 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

rpstrong

Your initial assertion:

…the FAA already broadcasts my HOME address, my last MEDICAL date, my ratings, the specifics of my airplane and it’s movement to the entire world…

Your definition of broadcasting:

When you have a system powered up an sending data over
the wire/air to anyone to access; it’s broadcast.

Beyond tail number and aircraft (not pilot) movement, what data is being broadcast and why?

December 2024

bagofsuds

I don’t own a cell phone.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ bagofsuds

rpstrong

Carrying the original hard copy[ies] remains an option.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ rpstrong

Arthur_Foyt

I do not want the FAA to publish my certificate to the world.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

rpstrong

And how are they publishing your certificate? As near as I can tell, they are allowing you to carry a copy accessible on your phone - but it is opt-in on your part.

1 reply
December 2024 ▶ rpstrong

Arthur_Foyt

Making it available to download means it’s publishing my certificate to the world.

December 2024

Uniform_Golf

I am puzzled why this would require a bill in Congress? Isn’t the FAA Already working on the ICAO’s electronic personnel licence (EPL) initiative? As of March 2023, Australia, Brazil and China had already implemented EPL systems for domestic use and Canada will be debuting EPLs in the near future.

December 2024

Terry_Welander

Around 600,000 pilots exist in the US; and that many around the rest of Earth. Or the numbers are too few to digitize. And digitizing is not desirable because nothing is perfect. Digital files are lost everywhere, though the losses are usually very, very small. In the case of pilots, a paper file is probably necessary to insure no losses. So digital files under the existing systems are redundant and not needed. And the increase in pilots will probably continue upward, but not enough to create a problem for the FAA. Hiring more people to keep track of records is not a problem; or should not be a problem. FAA records are in Oklahoma City; a good place for records. The government was thinking in a good way 70 years back moving records to Oklahoma City.