No one has mentioned that there might have been a medical problem with the P 63 pilot, an older guy that could have become incapacitated. That makes more sense than such a severe pilot error scenario.
I’ve heard mention but the P63 looked in control, with his belly to the B17. I’ve been in a P63 and it is hard to squeeze into. I didn’t fly it, but there is poor viability already without a turn. If you watch closely he is increasing his bank to make the turn. I doubt he was incapacitated. It was that tight of a turn and he was apparently complying with direction from the ground.
EAA Airventure air show planners routinely and safely carryout daily airshows with dozens and sometimes scores of dissimilar aircraft converging over Wittman Field at the same time. One of the keys to safety of such flyovers has been altitude separation for each of the dissimilar types of aircraft. Similarly, when different types of aircraft make continuous orbits of the airfield, they appear to be assigned different altitudes based on their speeds.
With the apparent large difference in speed, it seems like the B-17 should’ve been easily visible to the P-63 until very shortly before the collision, given that the P-63 was in a hard turn. Makes me wonder if the P-63 pilot was perhaps looking ahead and toward the inside of the turn, looking for the aircraft he was following or something, and just didn’t see the B-17 or misjudged the separation and thought he would turn inside of it.
Uh, okay. I didn’t know these people, nor did I suffer any loss with their passing. Of course I feel badly for the families, but as I pointed out, tens of thousands of people die every day, and if I spent my time rendering eulogies for each one, there would be little time for anything else. I grieve in my own way, both for the crews and these aircraft. Rather than dwell on postmortem protocols, we should research how to prevent future mishaps, and to preserve these aircraft for our posterity.
Seems like a situational awareness issue to lose track of a bomber you KNOW is there (…somewhere), but then I don’t know how much they’re relying on their own eyes vs whatever direction is being given.
Also, He may have been more concerned about the fighters he was flying with/around, since they may have constituted a more likely collision threat. Just more speculation.
The diff. in speed wouldn’t have been apparent if they were on a collision course, unless I’m much mistaken. Long time since I’ve flown. I believe there would have been no relative motion…
I’m a christian, I’m a christian. I’ve been listening to this BS all of my life. It’s a preface for every situation where some self-acclaimed, self righteous zealot is about to prove beyond doubt that they are not in any manner what they proclaim. Give it a rest. Stop trying to convince all of us and go quietly into your own home and try convincing yourself. That’s where your religion belongs. I’m not the only one sick of hearing this.
Sending prayers is a perfect method to demonstrate to others how pious and christ-like you wish to be perceived while doing absolutely nothing. How exceedingly shallow of you.
Is the Airboss’ communication not on a listenable frequency such that sites like liveATC would catch it?
Jack, in the briefing for this airshow there are clear ground references and lines to fly for the different groups of airplanes, i.e. the bombers fly the centerline of the runway and the fighters 500ft to the left of the centerline, and that line will be marked somehow. I flew this airshow back in the Midland days and rather than one big airshow, it is more like 4 in one. The trainers, fighters, bombers and cargos each fly their own briefed patterns. There will always be airplanes out of position or patterns that need adjusting and this is the job of the air boss, who is constantly talking and directing during this performance.
Agreed. These aircraft are so rare, flying airworthy examples should consist of benign maneuvers, and if they’re in formation, loosen those up to prevent exchanging paint. The P-63 pilot was hot-dogging the plane around in proximity to the bomber, when he should have given the Boeing a wide berth. The earlier fatal crash of a P-63 occurred during a vertical reverse maneuver. It seems that particular stunt should be crossed off the list.
I do indeed mourn the loss of lives, but I will not dwell on that particular aspect of accidents because there’s nothing you can do for the victims or their families. I won’t be sanctimonious about people dying. If I know who they are, or know them personally or professionally, then I can grieve from the standpoint of that association. General Yeager, who was a good friend of my father, was a great loss to me and the aviation community. A woman who instructed me during a professional pilot course was killed in an aircraft crash, and I felt very bad for her and her family. Old Bill Barnes, son of Florence “Pancho” Barnes, was killed in the crash of a P-51, along with our scoutmaster. That was a terrible blow to our family, since we rented planes from his FBO, and he trained my father for a multi-engine rating.
A Very tragic event… The Ultimate cause is that 1 of the 2 were at the wrong Altitude! 1 of several things happened in my opinion!
1.) Someone not paying attention
2.) Altimeter with Misconfigured Barometer settings
3.) Error in Altitude indication in the cockpits of one of the planes.
It will be interesting what the NTSB comes up with on this one… It is such a shame to lose these 2 crews that were so experienced and the plane that was such a part of great history.
Thankyou for the answers I was looking for. I got to see the B17 Sentimental Journey For the first time while in college at Illinois State I went and toured the aircraft at the airport then the next day when it left town it made a very impressive low pass from the west end of the Quad right down the center of campus, I was on my way to class and was right in the path it flew! That was impressive the sound of the 4 engines and the visual of the size of the plane were etched into my mind. That is one reason these war birds need to fly airshows and other public events seeing them as working living wonders of engineering and actually experincing the plane is so powerful a learning event compared to seeing a plane sitting in a museum or reading about what the plane was like in a book, the risk involved with flying them is acceptable. Life cant be lived being afraid it must be lived as briliantly as possible making the most out of the planes we have around, sure there is a place for static displays and talks by men that flew them, but it seems wrong and some how disrespectful of the guys that were killed in the accidents that have happened while making the demonstration flights, those that have given it all so the public can experince these wonders of an age gone by . The folks that crew the planes know it can go wrong and will tell you so, but they do not stop because of what might happen but continue flying because of what may happen!
@Robert L., not if he maintained a sightline on the bomber, which he ahould have done. Never lose sight of airplanes in, or near, the same part of the sky as you.
The only rule in flying formation, practiced or unpracticed, briefed or unbriefed, is don’t fly into the other guy.
No, the only thing that is “apparent” is that the P-63 pilot lost SA, pure and simple.
None of that applies. The only thing that applies here is loss of pilot SA, period. This will be the NTSB conclusion (and nothing about “altimeters” or “altitudes”); count on it.