Continue Discussion - visit the forum 105 replies
August 2021

system

As mentioned on a previous thread—we sell 100LL AND aviation auto fuel. The auto fuel is produced at an aviation refinery—it has a minimum of 94 octane—it is only produced for summer month Reid vapor pressure—every load has a “birth certificate “ to attest to the above, and it is only trucked by trucks dedicated exclusively to aviation fuel. We have never had a fuel issue in decades.

We will continue to sell 100 LL UNTIL there is enough demand and at a competitive price. I expect that to eventually happen/-years down the road. At that time, we will likely re evaluate, and barring operational issues, make the switch at that time.

In the meantime—I predict that many pilots will move to aviation auto if there is a big price difference. Users will move to the margins—go with aviation auto for those who can use it—or, barring any users difficulties—unleaded 100 octane.

For most of the country—supplying 100 unleaded won’t be a viable choice if the price is 60–90 cents higher than 100 LL.

August 2021

system

“When 100LL is outlawed, only outlaws will use 100LL.”

That obvious truth aside, as long as these various unleaded products are fungible, it may not matter how many of them are available in any given geographic area.

Proponents of less-than-100-octane alternatives are of the “I’m aboard; you can pull up the ladder!” persuasion. Their population of aircraft is larger, but the vast bulk of aviation gasoline that is sold goes into the tanks of aircraft that REQUIRE 100-octane fuel.

So in my simple mind, if we’re going to see a two- (non-jet) fuel ecosphere, it will be:

  1. A panoply of products that provide 100-octane performance.
  2. A panoply of products that provide sub-100-octane performance.

How many airports will bother to offer one of EACH? If the cost differential is small (say, 50 cents or so), probably none.

August 2021

system

Wellcome to the Kingdom of Sweden where Hjelmco pioneered unleaded AVGAS with 80 UL in the year of 1981 and Hjelmco AVGAS 91/96 UL in the year of 1991. We have for our network of 110 airfields/ports produced both the UL sorts and the 100 LL and marketed both of them now for 40 years.
The market appreciates having the UL AVGAS because it is about 40 USA cent cheaper than 100 LL/US gallon and engines tend to (by 40 years of statistics) operate to about 3000 hours (TBO + 50 %) before the needed overhaul.
The Hjelmco AVGAS 100 UL was developed in year 2006 and tested with the Swiss Civil Aviation Authority and the German DLR (equivalent to the US NASA). It is also supported by 400 pages of technical documentation originating from Cessna. This fuel now carries 2 US patents plus patents in Canada, Australia, New Zeeland and Europe (granted Aug 04 2021).
The problem: it was not invented in the US?
Wellcome to our webb page hjelmco.com where there are numerous information in English to obtain.
Paul is well aware of Hjelmco.

August 2021

system

I’m sure not technically savvy here, but how much of the GA fleet operate with an O-360 or smaller, including Rotax engines. I’ve been using auto fuel for the last 20 years in my A65s, realizing they will run on about anything, and have had excellent results with it. Always clean plugs, no stuck valves, etc. I know a bunch of folks say auto fuel is no good, but what’s the track record of it harming anyone’s engines? I haven’t heard of any personal experiences. I say auto fuel for one of the choices.

1 reply
August 2021

system

What’s the track record? We’ve sold or used aviation auto fuel for 16 years at this FBO, and 12 years at another. With use/sales at about 15,000 gallons a year, that’s 420,000 gallons without a problem. This doesn’t include what fuel pilots bring in from the local gas station in cans.

The only issue–since we get all of our fuel straight from the refiner, who MAKES it to aviation specifications, I’d like to get rid of the “odifier” added to auto gas. Use the same odor as 100 octane. The only objection to aviation auto fuel is the odor or car gas.

3 replies
August 2021 ▶ system

system

Jim. What’s the biggest engines with an auto fuel STC? What are the biggest your customers have used it with?

2 replies
August 2021

system

Does anyone know why ASTM (the standards group that handles standards for the petroleum industry) didn’t take this on years ago? They have a pretty good track record of creating functional standards for the rest of the hydrocarbon-consuming universe.

It seems like it would have made a lot more sense to start with a standard that everyone has to meet and that the stakeholders (engine manufacturers, refiners, distributors, FBOs, FAA and other CAAs) accept, THEN have the various fuel refiners or innovators like Swift and GAMI create formulations that meet the standard.

1 reply
August 2021 ▶ system

system

My C182 with an O470 has a mogas STC which I would have gotten if non ethanol mogas was available in California. Also always fueled it on 80 Octane avgas (which by the way contained less lead than 100LL) when it was still refined.

1 reply
August 2021 ▶ system

system

There’s one other objection besides smell. Aging. Autofuel, even without ethanol, doesn’t age as well as avgas does and the hotter it is, the worse it is. Probably not an issue for a year or so, but longer than that and you can begin to see gum formation. Avgas can sit for years and remain chemically stable.

So, apparently, can the new unleaded 100-octane fuels.

2 replies
August 2021 ▶ system

system

You’ve got it backwards, actually. The primary spec was 100 octane. When 100LL came into being, the ASTM spec (D910) was written based on what was known to work, which was a certain amount of lead additive, vapor pressure, net heat content and other qualities. D910 described that and it became more a purchasing agent’s spec sheet rather than a recipe.

August 2021

system

Interesting that Swift has lined up so many new California airports–I was under the impression they were actively trying NOT to sell it to airports here before. At the snails pace UL avgas has been coming to market it will finally become ubiquitous about the same time IC engines become illegal due to climate change.

1 reply
August 2021

system

STEM be damed, there is no support in communities nor the government for small private piston singles. Heck, even a lot of airports shun smaller planes (so much so that even the sleeping AOPA woke a bit to look at the ramp practices)

Basically we will get what we get and are supposed to respond with thanks.

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Biggest engines with an auto fuel STC? Some that come immediately to mind:
O-540 on Cherokee 235 and AeroSpatiale Rallye
0-470s on Skylanes and 180s
P&W R-985 of Ag Cat and BT-13
P&W R-1340 (600 hp.) on Ag Cat and T-6
R-1830 on DC-3 (skydiver aircraft)

For those with 160 hp engines, Petersen does have an STC for them–high-test auto fuel (we do that anyway). For Cherokee Warriors, it requires replacing the RH fuel line with a larger line, and a second vacuum pump for standby.

If you are interested to see the aircraft and engines approved, Petersen has a list here: https://www.autofuelstc.com/approved_engines_airfames.phtml

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Good point, Paul.

To protect against age, we only accept deliveries with “summer blend” fuel. The refinery usually switches over to “winter blend” (changed Reid Vapor Pressure) at the end of October each year. To insure that there is no old fuel, or winter blend fuel, we bring the inventory up to 7000 gallons–enough to take us through the winter (yes, the winter in Minnesota is LONG, but not a YEAR LONG!–laugh). We have a floating suction system in the tank to protect against water condensation, as well as a “dead stop” water filter that shuts down the pumps in the event of water contamination.

In short, we have done everything we can to protect against fuel problems (“birth certificate” for the fuel, dedicated delivery trucks, summer blend only for RVP, floating suction, aviation filtration, no old fuel, water filters). We do it not only to protect our customers, but OURSELVES. Years ago, we had a lawyer flying a T-6 in to get fuel on the way back from Oshkosh–when he got home, he sent a letter saying “I had some engine problems, I may have gotten some bad fuel.” I told him "You picked the wrong guy to tell THAT fairy tale to!

Moral of the story–we don’t take a chance on fuel from the local gas station. Who knows WHAT it has been mixed with during storage or in the pipeline, or on delivery. Despite all of the extra work, it’s still over a dollar a gallon cheaper than 100LL.

Now–if they would only change the State laws and do something to eliminate the need to blend in the autogas SMELL at the refinery! (laugh)

August 2021

system

As part of the team that has brought Swift UL94 to San Jose CA (and other local airports signing on…) there is no chance that 2 unleaded 100 Octane fuels will remain in the marketplace. Either Swift or GAMI’s formula will be blessed fleetwide by the FAA and will be licensed by the few refiners interested in brewing Avgas to replace the outlawed 100LL. The FAA, EPA and Biden Administration will ban Tetraethyl lead and its importation from Innospec in the UK as soon as the ink dries on FAA approval of UL100. It appears that Phillips, Shell and others are more interested in “green jet fuel” than Avgas, and are not really pursuing the development & testing needed to get final approvals. And if both GAMI and Swift get FAA approvals at or about the same time, the lower-cost formula is going to carry the day, assuming the license terms for the proprietary formula are reasonable.

2 replies
August 2021 ▶ system

system

Swift was never opposed to sale of UL94 in California. It takes years of groundwork to educate pilots and build demand and streamline the STC process to make it happen. And then it took a major effort to establish a distribution model of large enough quantities to overcome transportation cost issues and reliable supply stream. Pilots at Reid Hillview Airport in San Jose led that effort knowing since 2019 that our county politicians were going to use “lead poisoning” as an excuse to close the airport. If you have airport opponents in your neighborhood, rest assured they will be studying Reid Hillview and planning to try and use the lead argument as an excuse to redevelop the airport into a housing tract or shopping center.

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Mogas has issues with storage periods, ethanol and octane ratings, in addition to distribution/delivery issues at airports with limited fuel storage tanks. In California, ALL Mogas must contain Ethanol, and maximum Octane rating for Mogas is 91, so it is a non-starter for most airports and aircraft here. It can be used in some aircraft designed for 80 or 91 Octane fuel years ago, if an Ethanol-free source can be arranged.

August 2021

system

“Are we about to set the clock back to the days when we had two grades of aviation fuel—three, really—only unleaded this time?”

Are you getting so long in tooth that you have forgotten the time when four grades were available?

80/87
91/96
100/130
115/145

1 reply
August 2021 ▶ system

system

Fully agree–"
We will continue to sell 100 LL UNTIL there is enough demand and at a competitive price. I expect that to eventually happen/-years down the road. At that time, we will likely re evaluate, and barring operational issues, make the switch at that time."

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Not to mention that many older engines were certified on “73 octane fuel” (not specifically identified as an av fuel. In the case of the Ranger engines on the PT-19 and PT-26, it says “If 73 octane is not available, use 65 octane and monitor.”

August 2021

system

Why has the successful Swedish product been simply adopted here?

August 2021

system

For what it’s worth:

Our local Sheetz now has ethanol free 90 octane, on two pumps. Last I checked $3.60/gallon.

They just finished a remodel on the store, replaced all the old fuel tanks, installed new pumps.

So logistically/financially, they have found a way to carry an oddball grade in addition to the “normal” stuff.

We do live near the water, lots of boaters, so that may have factored into the decision. And of course, fuel for lawn equipment. Saves me from going out of my way to the marina to pick up a few gallons for the lawn mower.

Even further, made a trip to Virginia a month or so back. Their Sheetz had your normal selection, and like 3 other grades/blends at each pump, that I had never seen before. Was very confusing.

August 2021

system

I contacted about the target price for 100UL and told it was something less than $100/gal.
This will only sell if 100LL is outlawed. Does anyone doubt our fuel will be $10/gal or more?
Many airports in NV and AZ have no fuel, expect more to follow with this price increase.

1 reply
August 2021 ▶ system

system

Yea. “They say” that 100 low lead is actually four times the lead content of the old 80/87.

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Isn’t that the truth. Although I use auto fuel in my Aeronca usually, when out away from my airport, I have to use avgas occasionally. And I will say, when I fire it up then, it smells sooo good, like an airplane should.

August 2021 ▶ system

system

Once an unleaded 100LL replacement becomes readily available, I don’t know why anyone would voluntarily continue to use 100LL. The reduced maintenance costs and improved reliability of not having to deal with fouled plugs will make up for at least some of the increased fuel cost.

August 2021 ▶ system

system

I’ve owned my C182 since 1990. It came with a Gold Medallion Factory Reman (zero time) with 250 SFREM. O-470R. Around that time 80 started going away. I tried a steady diet of 100LL but ended up with fouled bottom plugs about every 50-100 hrs no matter how aggressively I leaned. The engine is a cold blooded engine with CHTs in the low 320s summer and low 300s winter, even in aggressive high powered climbs it was hard to get CHTs above 360.
I switched to ETOH free mogas at 335 hours SFRM, no appreciable difference in performance, CHTs, EGTS or fuel consumption. The engine ran to 2750 hrs or about 1250 past its 1500 hr TBO. The overhaul was due to increased nickel in the oil and Cam spalling. It ran nearly exclusively on mogas. At teardown, the overhauler told me I’d probably trashed the entire engine. Two days later he said other than the cam, the engine was immaculate.

I flew between 150 and 300 hours/year at altitudes between 2000’ MSL up to 15,000. Never had a whisper of problems. The engine is now on its second run, at 1750, 250 past TBO running mostly on mogas, which is getting harder to find, a smattering of time on Swift 94UL, and the remainder on 100LL. It flies on the average twice a month on 5.5 hour legs, the oil analyses are clean with no wear metals and more lead than I’ve seen in a long time, mainly due to my second base having only 100LL.

So, since the 1990s I’ve run around 4,250 hours on this engine, one overhaul, which might have been avoided if camguard was used.

August 2021

system

Leaded fuel has no future. When not if, it is outlawed, there is going to be chaos as I just don’t see the change over until the issue is forced by a government ban on leaded fuel.

The number one issue the alphabet groups should be working on is to advocate for a reasonable sunset period to allow an orderly change over, but piston GA has no real political power.

Personally I think the future is 94 UL. It is the existing 100LL but without the TEL additive. No lead 100 Octane will be so expensive that most aircraft owners will elect to modify their engines for 94 via STC’s.

1 reply
August 2021

system

“If you can see where this is going, let me know. I have no idea and I don’t think anyone else does, either. No one knows if the majors or minors will stay in the leaded avgas business to the bitter end, whether they’ll sign on for licensed production of G100 or Swift’s 100R, if it graduates from development, or if UL94 has legs in the market if 100-octane gains a foothold relatively soon.”

The market is responding to a very confused end user. Just look at the responses on this thread plus the recent unleaded avgas poll. Some pilots, aircraft owners, and many mechanics swear they can determine “engine damage” in aircraft engines that use non-ethanol auto-gas or mogas. That “engine damage” is never clearly defined. But they swear non-ethanol autogas or mogas is causing some sort of engine anomaly, wear patterns, with their intuition saying it is not good. Sort of an aviation urban myth. No one knows where the myth started. But by gosh, non-ethanol autogas is no good for airplane engines. The hell with the Peterson STC or EAA STC, it don’t matter how exhausting and strenuous the test(s), no matter the accumulated data over the past four decades, non-ethanol/unleaded auto fuel or mogas is no good. Period!

Then there are those like myself, who has been using non-ethanol auto fuel for a long time ( 15 years in two personally owned airplanes) along with dozens of other fellow aircraft owners, who have clean oil, no fouled plugs, clean valve guides, much cleaner valve seats resulting in much improved compression ratios, lower oil consumption, consistent mag checks, easier starting hot or cold, and averaging $1-2.00 less per gallon fuel costs. The total aircraft engine improvements make it very worthwhile to do whatever is necessary to use non-ethanol autogas, purchased locally from a variety of self-serve stations including Walmart. Yes, not quite as convenient as the local self-serve avgas dispenser. The upside is I don’t have to deal with the nuances of the avgas dispenser that seems to have a mind of its own with no guarantee it will dispense today as it might have a week before. Cross county flights take more planning. But for me, a 20-50 NM diversion for mogas still makes it worthwhile. As both an A&P, an aircraft owner using unleaded, non-ethanol auto fuel over a long time, I still have never convinced the naysayers described above of its virtues. Apparently, the long term testimonies from the EU also do not count to these people either.

Then we have the third end users who are listening to the debate like spectators viewing a tennis match from the sidelines near the net. They watch the volley’s between the folks who swear mogas is no good and those who are successfully using the same for decades, being mostly renters who fly airplanes having no choice in what fuel is in the tanks. All they know or want assurance of is the engine run properly throughout the flight. Whatever morning sickness or mag roughness will be fixed by a mechanic. Their hourly rates have not changed no matter what is in the tanks. So why get up in a lather over the debate or invest themselves in learning the science to make more educated fuel decisions. In a practical sense, they have no choice.

The last group is the engine manufacturers. They have a potential liability problem, according to their lawyers, type certificates, the FAA, and many of their engineers. So, they are the last ones to give any kind of blessing using non-ethanol auto fuel, mogas, Swift, Gami, or anybody else’s fuel outside of 100LL avgas. This provides much cannon fodder for the group that swears anything short of 100LL is causing engine damage, adds confusion to group three watching the debate, and frustrating the hell out of those who have been using it for decades. Hence" If you can see where this is going, let me know. I have no idea and I don’t think anyone else does, either."

That leaves the manufacturers of avgas having to guess who will be their most loyal customers will be. No doubt they are keeping an eye out for companies like Swift or GAMI while raising the proverbial finger into the air to see how those competitors financial winds are blowing combined with a distant curiosity to watch their investment into the infrastructure in their attempt to broaden their distribution. All of them know how to make unleaded mogas and non-ethanol auto fuel. Its just a matter of deciding when it is time to join the party or spoil it.

Personally, I will not discontinue use of my local Walmart’s 91 octane non-ethanol auto fuel especially if my unleaded alternative will be as expensive or more so that avgas. If my airport will stock mogas that is less expensive than 100LL, I will happily use it. I already seek and use airports that have made that investment. But as long as general aviation is as fractured as it is, I see no wide implementation of unleaded fuel for a long time.

When the manufacturing of new airplanes and their engines out pace the use and eventual destruction of the 66-70% of the present 40-80 year old airplanes that can already use mogas, that is when the debate will be settled. But that means 100LL will be required by the big inch Continental and Lycoming owners because I don’t see those engine manufacturers willing to invest in making those engines work on anything less than 100LL. By that time, the aircraft ranks will have shrunk so much that there will be no financial reason to continue production. The EPA, average non GA flying citizens, and aviation clueless politicians already look at any privately owned airplane as an extravagance. Extravagance and “green” don’t mix.

At my age, I have no fear of losing 100LL. I chose to own airplanes that run excellent on readily available non-ethanol auto fuel. That was a driving reason why I bought what I did. I have a solution that is “green”, less expensive, and far better for my engine. It is readily available. And my airplane performs as well or better than the million dollar airplanes that cannot fly without 100LL.

So, I will let the battle for a “green” fuel be fought by the 200-400 per year new Cirrus owners, the remaining used Cirrus owners, the Lycoming owners who cannot gain an auto fuel STC, Swift, and GAMI. Plenty of potential room for two fuels. However, I see no end to the confusion nor the debate.

1 reply
August 2021

pilotkris

Paul may or may not remember, but over 15 years ago I suggested that we only needed one fuel, the fuel that was currently in production… 100LL. BUT DON’T ADD THE LEAD.

Have the lead (TEL) added at the pump (if 100+octane is really needled).

Before the TEL is added, the fuel is about 94 octane (essentially 94UL) and absolutely 100% compatible with all aircraft systems. All but the highest compression or TSIO engines can use it TODAY. Those that need the lead can get it (and pay for it) at the pump.

Overnight we will have eliminated 70%+ of aviation lead emissions and provided a RELIABLE source of Unleaded AVGAS that is cheaper than leaded AVGAS.

Now, the engine manufacturers have a reason to dust off their TSEIO engines and finally get them certified.

Operators will have a reason to buy the new engines (cheaper gas)

And, Operators who don’t need or want it won’t be forced to pay extra for octane they neither need or want.

“Dial an Octane” is not a new concept, it was used at automobile gas stations for decades. We just need an updated version.

For decades, AOPA has been championing the “one-fuel solution” as the only solution. 30 years later, we’re still needlessly pumping lead through engines that don’t need it (or 100 octane).

1 reply
August 2021

system

Today 8/31 the UN declared victory by announcing the world is free from leaded gas (in trucks and cars). It took almost 100 years for this to happen. Interesting since unlike aviation, cars didn’t have the technical hurdles: a country could’ve switched to unleaded in the 70s.

I think the only way to accelerate unleaded in aviation is to set a short government compliance timeline and subsidize the adoption of it.

NOTE: before anyone comes crashing down on this post, I’m just saying that is a path not necessarily what I advocate or prefer. Just saying what it would take.

Think of as lol the subsidies we already are paying for. This would be one more.

August 2021 ▶ pilotkris

system

Providing 94UL will not eliminate 70% of lead emissions. It’s more like 30%.

While it’s true that 70% of the existing fleet can run on low-octane fuel, they’re made up of small(er) planes with smaller engines and consequently less fuel consumption. The remaining 30% of the fleet consists of bigger engines that require 100 octane and are used more in commercial operations. As a result they consume about 70% of avgas sold.

1 reply
August 2021

system

As Kris Larson and RN have indicated, there are suggestions about reducing the amount of lead in fuels, but it may also indicate the handwriting it already on the wall. With a single producer of TEL for the world (practically speaking), three things could happen to end that production. First, a fire or similar accident at the production facility. TEL is nasty stuff; both a health hazard and highly flammable. Damage to the facility might make them decide to just not rebuild. Second, declining sales from issues like the UN elimination of lead in auto fuels and/or aviation fuels might cause them to halt production. Third, the threat of government (i.e. EPA, etc.) mandates might just force the same outcome as #2. Why stay until the end if the outcome is obvious? Why continue to pay O&M costs on equipment for a product in serious decline? I fear the best we can hope for is an orderly transition from 100LL to one form of 100UL before the proverbial iceberg hits our ship. One way or the other, it’s coming.

1 reply
September 2021 ▶ system

system

Ray- I have no idea who you contacted, but the refinery cost for Swift’s Unleaded 100 formula is pegged at about 50 cents more per gallon than 100LL. Their UL94 is actually cheaper than 100LL at the refinery, and local airport retail prices driven by transport cost and markups. UL94 is selling in San Jose today for 30 cents more per gallon than 100LL. GAMI’s formula is more expensive to brew, and is forecast to be closer to $1 per gallon more than current 100LL. There were proposed formulas from Phillips and Shell back in PAFI testing cycle prior to 2015 that were very expensive, but those are not viable contenders, as they also happened to dissolve aircraft paint.
And you can be absolutely sure that as soon as an Unleaded 100 Octane Avgas is “FAA Approved” the federal government (EPA and FAA and Commerce Dept) will outlaw importation of Tetraethyl Lead and 100LL will disappear very rapidly. And lastly, the problems in Nevada and Arizona regarding fuel supplies are directly linked to shortage of Commercial fuel tanker truck drivers, who lost work when COVID reduced driving and flight hours, and thus demand for auto gas and avgas. Chevron here in California has plenty of 100LL, but they and distributors like Avfuel and World and Epic are not very good right now getting it delivered to airports.

September 2021 ▶ system

system

There are only 5 refineries brewing 100LL in the US today. It doesn’t typically flow through any of the major pipelines, to avoid contaminating other fuels with lead. Both of the Unleaded formulas (GAMI and Swift) for 100 Octane are “intermixable”, so as soon as a refinery loses access to lead because it is banned and converts to Unleaded 100, they can ship that to airports and it is a drop-in fuel… Converting a turbocharged high-compression engine with magnetos to run UL94 would cost a lot of horsepower, and possibly still run poorly at high altitude on hot day. UL94 really is a “bridge product” to reduce lead and take lead away from airport opponents until the universal UL100 is on the market…

There won’t be a long change-over process. In San Jose, the storage tanks at the FBO’s were allowed to empty, the UL94 was dropped into tanks and pumped into trucks, and aircraft began adding UL94 into fuel tanks the next day. Within a few days, the remaining 100LL was essentially flushed out after a few refuelings. And trust me, the AOPA, NBAA and EAA are all very involved in issues over lead and Avgas.

September 2021 ▶ system

system

Kirk - The 70% of existing GA piston fleet that can burn UL94 might consume a little less fuel per hour, but they fly significantly more hours per month or year than the aircraft with larger engines… At our airport in San Jose, CA 90 of the airport operations tracked by the control tower over an entire week were aircraft were aircraft eligible to use UL94. We believe the airborne lead emissions reduction by switching to UL94 is closer to 80%, not 30%…

1 reply
September 2021 ▶ system

system

Jim- If you can find reliable supplies of Mogas without ethanol and your aircraft are covered by Mogas STC, that will continue to remain an option for you and your airplane, though often without dedicated fuel tanks and deliveries at the airport. There is only going to be a single unleaded 100 Octane Avgas fuel on the market within a couple years, and that will be the standard at most larger airports in the US. Swift has made clear that they will replace UL94 with Unleaded 100 Octane as soon as the FAA has completed testing and approval. The government and regulators will not permit 100LL to exist for planes anymore than they permitted lead in auto gas after the new formulas were available.

September 2021 ▶ system

system

Yes, Innospec in the UK (sole producer of Tetraethyl Lead…) is very much a risky supplier. They are under pressure to close the facility, and they have declared publicly that they would like to shut down the facility themselves, but are compelled to keep making the product solely for Avgas. That is why I am so confident that 100LL will disappear very rapidly as soon as unleaded 100 Octane fuel is approved. If the plant were to experience an unplanned shutdown, the world’s supply of Avgas would indeed be at risk, and a lot of planes would be grounded.

September 2021

system

The switch to UL100 could be a disaster for many owners of airplanes produced in small volume or for those whose manufacturers are now defunct. Many will run just fine on UL100 or 94UL or mogas, but specify only 100LL on their original airworthiness certificate. Presently, if I understand it correctly, this can only be changed upon petition and proof from the airframe manufacturer. (Approval by the engine manufacturer alone is not sufficient.) Even if the original manufacturer exists, what motivation do they have to make such an effort - one that earns them nothing? Going the STC route is not a much better alternative when the sales potential may only number in the dozens.

Hopefully, the FAA will declare UL100 or whatever as a functional and legal replacement for 100LL without the potential paperwork nightmare which will otherwise follow. Or potentially worse, the grounding of hundreds of perfectly good airplanes, including mine.

2 replies
September 2021

system

Many years ago I was having our R-985 overhauled at a well known shop in Oklahoma. I wanted to watch the tear down & watch the magna fluxing of the crankshaft as I was aware of the possible problems with those crankshafts. While they were tearing down the engine the owner of the shop asked me “what oil are you using?” I answered hime & added that I was religious about changing it every 25 hours (non-filtered engine). He said he’d “never seen one this clean”. He pointed to a bin full of cylinders & told me that he “could tell if the engine had been run on auto fuel”. I look at a couple of cylinders & saw severe pitting of the cylinder walls. I will continue to use aviation fuels which do not cause my cylinders to be put in that bin. The cheapest thing you do to an airplane engine is put fuel & oil in it.

1 reply
September 2021 ▶ system

system

It could depend on exactly how the original certificate was worded. If the certificate said that the fuel was to be 100LL, or similar wording, you might be correct. If the certificate said 100LL or 100 octane aviation fuel, then as long as the FAA approves the 100UL formulation, you should be legal. The latter wording would accept any approved fuel of 100 octane rating, regardless of the presence or absence of TEL.

September 2021 ▶ system

system

One problem with auto gas is that there is no consistent chemical formulation across the various producers. All refiners will produce an automotive grade fuel, but the exact chemical content depends largely on the base crude stocks they start with. Since there are many hundreds of crude oils from different suppliers, a refinery must mix and blend to create a fuel that meets ASTM specifications. However, those specifications primarily define physical attributes such as minimum octane rating, maximum Reid vapor pressure, etc., but don’t limit the chemical content very much. So, depending on your location, you could have a “Mogas” that is distinctly different in chemical content from other parts of the country. All this to say that people’s experiences with using auto gas in their plane engines, good or bad, may vary depending on which gas they are using. On the other hand, 100LL has a much more restrictive chemical base, so fleet wide variations are pretty small. Bottom line, if you have a good history with Mogas, great. But don’t make the assumption that all engines and all auto gas will be compatible. As you say, Avgas and oil are cheap compared to an engine overhaul. Experiment at your own risk.

September 2021

system

The whole 100LL is doomed camp seem pretty suspicious to me. You know what’s doomed? Certified light aircraft over fifty years old. Using similar logic, let’s see how this goes.

Everything you guys say about 100LL is more true about most of the fleet. What causes more deaths? Untraceable amounts of lead even near the runways or the planes themselves?

There’s really no reason the FAA hasn’t started an inspection regime on most of the older aircraft that would make them more expensive to operate than simply replacing them with a new bird.

Think the EPA has an agenda? What about Textron? Those guys would LOVE to quadruple sales of new aircraft. Their lobbyists likely get paid money the bureaucrats would drool over.

So how about we take the certitude down a notch?

September 2021 ▶ system

system

The switch to UL94 for older airplanes is relatively simple if the aircraft and engine combo are eligible per Swift’s Testing and Approval process. A quick search on their website will identify whether the plane and engine combo are OK or not <and you can send inquiry of combo not listed…) and then if you are eligible, purchase the $100 STC package, get pre-filled 337 forms for any A&P to make logbook entry and put stickers next to filler caps. The Swift UL94 STC's will also extend to their UL100 fuel if it becomes the standard. They are following different path than GAMI, by trying to complete broadest possible testing and approvals (making it universal replacement for 100LL) before launching publicly. FWIW, all but one of the GAMI 100 Octane unleaded aircraft/engine combo's are also approved for UL94…

September 2021

system

Eric- The fleet of “elder aircraft” is way too large to scrap, and the the FAA really has no interest in grounding airworthy airplanes. Folks need to understand that an army of environmentalists, anti-airport crusaders and bureaucrats have discovered that little airplanes burn gas with lead in it, and all lead in the environment is harmful. The FAA and EPA have known that since the 90’s, and sparred in a few court cases, but with rising pressure against lead and rising anxiety over single source in the UK, there is finally momentum to bring UL100 to market. And when it arrives, UL100 will roll out worldwide pretty fast as the new single Avgas for piston engines aircraft…

September 2021 ▶ system

system

That may be true based upon your observations at one airport. But fleet-wide surveys done several years apart have repeatedly shown the 70/30 mix to be about right (ie. 30% of the fleet can only burn 100LL, but they consume 70% of the avgas sold).

Much of business aviation is invisible to the average private pilot because it occurs during the work-week (and at night) and and not just on weekends. The local airport may seem alive and buzzing with training activity and weekend flyers. But there are a lot of high-horsepower piston singles and twins flying away from the local area, delivering passengers and freight to and fro.

January 2023

Arthur_Foyt

“White House press secretary Karine Jean-Pierre stated that there is currently no evidence that the outage was caused by a cyberattack”

Why would blaming the outage on internal (administration) failures make it any less scary?

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

Skypark

Internal problems (and they generally are not “administration” related, i.e. someone screwed up) can be expected from time to time. For example, we all lose things occasionally. A cyberattack is the equivalent of someone breaking into your house and TAKING things. Most people would be more concerned about the latter than the former.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ Skypark

Arthur_Foyt

If nationwide outages can occur if just one person trips over a power cord then that is still the administration.

January 2023

pilotmww

Inexcusable, especially the ground stops. Next thing you know the FAA will be putting out nationwide ground stops for cloud cover!

1 reply
January 2023

rekabr52

Are we making ourselves ever more vulnerable with the increase in and mania for computerized everything? Not saying we shouldn’t use them but with the Russians, Red Chinese, and North Koreans prowling around on the internet we are capable of being had also think EMP. Love her statement “currently there is no evidence.” It happened last night and this is just a tad premature.

3 replies
January 2023

mgiacomet

Too much time invested making sure the acronym is politically correct… Not enough time to make it resilient. :slight_smile:

2 replies
January 2023

Lars_Hjelmberg

The Swedish NOTAM system had been away for many months in Sweden due to new computer system - but we could always log into the NOTAM systems in neighbouring countries.
I assume you in the US also have the standard that when a NOTAM is issued it goes into
the international NOTAM system at the same time as it is logged at the national system.
So the US system should have been redundant?

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ rekabr52

gmbfly98

In short, yes.

The longer answer is that resilient and secure computer systems are not cheap or easy to maintain, yet IT staff who maintain the systems are often some of the first people cut, and many organizations don’t want to pay for a fully-resilient system, so compromises are made. And even if a fully-resilient system is purchased and maintained properly, there are still ways in which it can be disrupted (often as a result of human error).

This isn’t to say we shouldn’t use these systems. But critical infrastructure should have some form of backup system, at least to allow reduced or delayed service levels. We have procedures to fly IFR in the case of lost-comms or non-radar environments, but apparently we don’t have procedures for the loss of the NOTAM system.

January 2023

Tom_Smythe

For the past few years, the FAA has been preparing for/upgrading the old NOTAM system to be more compatible with those of other countries (not all) around the world. That was suppose to finish around summer of this year. It would not surprise me if someone threw a switch before something was ready and brought the whole thing to it’s knees. Or, worse, they thought it was ready and forgot to separate the backup/standby system prior to implementing a change (making it unrecoverable as the standby system incorporated the change when it rolled into the production system).

For a system that has such a high impact on air travel, it seems the design is not as resilient as folks thought. Much like the ground control issue in Florida a week or so ago that caused delays in the region until they figured out how to resolve it.

January 2023 ▶ mgiacomet

chip

Now that you’ve hurled the first offensive stone, Horace, do you really think the Secretary of Transportation, an Oxford Rhodes Scholar who spent seven years as an officer in the Naval Reserves, and voluntarily deployed to Afghanistan, had anything to do with the NOTAM outage?

Or did you just want an excuse to spew your ignorant homophobic spittle?

1 reply
January 2023

bobt

They could just scrap the whole NOTAM system and post on Facebook or Twitter. Cheaper, faster, more reliable and more people would see it.

January 2023

RobertBismuth

Curious that the NOTAM system could have this effect. What other secondary systems that the FAA has running could also shut things down in this way? Whether this was an attack or an “administrative problem”, it shows a weakness in the system or the way the system is used/thought of by the FAA.

Since I operate under Part 91, I’ve never looked at what 121 and 135 say about the requirement for a NOTAM briefing before a flight. Part 91 doesn’t seem to require it as the closest I see is 91.103 which says “Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.” The key word is “available” … if the NOTAM system is not available does that excuse a pre-flight briefing requirement of knowing what applicable NOTAMs there are at the time of the flight?

Personally, I’d want to know the NOTAMs that affected my flight before I make the flight and I suspect that’s the safety philosophy of the FAA on this one.

It’ll be interesting to see what really was the cause of this system failure and also what safeguards will go into place for the future (for all secondary IT systems like the NOTAM system) as the cost of ground stopping all flights is enormous!

2 replies
January 2023 ▶ rekabr52

NewUserName

As a person who spent much of his working life in the high quality end of the tech world, I get bitter about this. In the early 2000’s there were a lot of software people taking big advantage of bad decisions made by the customers who let their vendors put them in positions where they could easily be leveraged for ridiculous support terms. Read up on Computer Associates and their business model if you are interested. One outcome of this was the open source movement which helped destroy any chance at security against malicious actors and bad software. Open source is a religion, like socialized medicine, and very few people are able to rationally discuss it.
On the other hand, the entire IT world, including me, chased the easy to use benefit allowing more and more idiots onto the systems. Sometimes I feel like I spent well over a decade increasing the speed of garbage in, garbage out from paper systems to web enabled ones.
And all that just magnifies the problem of management making bad choices. So many bad managers.

2 replies
January 2023

vince

I don’t understand. Nobody reads the darn things anyway. :wink:

2 replies
January 2023 ▶ chip

NewUserName

Well, if he’s a military officer, and in the chain of command, he ought to at least feel responsible.
I will be impressed if he shows any earnest sense of failure over this.

January 2023

rick223344

“the system went down at 2028Z on Jan. 10”.

According to the article 2028Z on Jan 10th would be 1528EST yesterday afternoon.

The article and the ATCSCC Advisory do not agree. The advisory (quoted below) states the outage occurred on 1/11/2023 at 2028Z. That would be 1528EST today which is well after the event. ???

ATCSCC Advisory
ATCSCC ADVZY 013 DCC 01/11/2023 NOTAM SYSTEM EQUIPMENT OUTAGE_FYI
MESSAGE:

EVENT TIME: 10/2028 - 11/0700

REPLACES/EXTENDS ADVZY 006

THE UNITED STATES NOTAM SYSTEM FAILED AT 2028Z. SINCE THEN NO NEW
NOTAMS OR AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN PROCESSED. TECHNICIANS ARE CURRENTLY
WORKING TO RESTORE THE SYSTEM AND THERE IS NO ESTIMATE FOR
RESTORATION OF SERVICE AT THIS TIME. THERE IS CURRENTLY A HOTLINE IN
EFFECT WHICH HAS NAIMES/FAA FACILITIES/STAKEHOLDERS IN ATTENDANCE.
THIS HOTLINE INFORMATION IS CONTAINED WITHIN ADVZY 004. THIS ADVZY
WILL BE UPDATED AS NECESSARY.

EFFECTIVE TIME:

110418 - 110730
SIGNATURE:

23/01/11 04:18

2 replies
January 2023 ▶ RobertBismuth

pilotmww

Same for pt135. Don’t know about pt121. There was absolutely no reason to ground stop everything because of the notam computer failure. Telephone calls to FBO’s to check for airport issues still works, just takes a little more time and effort. Like I said earlier, sooner or later the FAA will start ground stopping everything for cloud cover if we don’t clean house at the FAA.

January 2023 ▶ Lars_Hjelmberg

scottcondon

Lars, That makes a great deal of sense. A document posted on the FAA’s website on December 2, 2022 appears to state that the FAA is in the process of bringing its format and system in compliance with ICAO standards so that they are posted world wide on other country’s computer systems. But it doesn’t appear that US NOTAMS are available at this point.
https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/notams/

January 2023 ▶ RobertBismuth

gmbfly98

I think it might be 121.601(a): “The aircraft dispatcher shall provide the PIC all available current reports or information on airport conditions and irregularities of navigation facilities that may affect the safety of flight”. If the NOTAM system is down, the dispatcher can’t provide information on the “airport conditions and irregulatiries of navigation facilities”.

I believe the wording “all available” assumes that the TFR, NOTAM, etc sources are functional.

1 reply
January 2023

HB1

A little more detail about this Ground Stop would be helpful. The system apparently went down at 2028Z yesterday, but flights were still departing; my commute home last night departed on time at 2340Z. A quick search shows no significant delays of last night’s red-eyes, nor this mornings 1100Z departures, so just when was this Ground Stop?

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ rick223344

Jim_DeLaHunt

Rick C.: the text you quoted does not say that the outage occurred “on 1/11/2023”. The advisory is dated 1/11/2023, and says the outage occurred “at 2028Z”, date unspecified. It is reasonable to infer that the advisory was sent after the the event it describes, rather than before it. Hence, if the advisory was sent on 1/11/2023, on or before 1/11/2023 20:27Z, then the most reasonable interpretation of “at 2028Z” would be “at 1/10/2023 20:28Z”.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ NewUserName

Jim_DeLaHunt

“…the open source movement which helped destroy any chance at security against malicious actors and bad software. Open source is a religion, like socialized medicine, and very few people are able to rationally discuss it.”

As a person who spent much of his working life in the tech world, though I won’t claim it was always the “high quality” end, I disagree with you that the open source movement is one of the top destructors of “any chance at security against malicious actors and bad software”. But then I may be part of the open source religion, just as I benefit from accessible medical care without fear of bankruptcy, thanks to socialised medicine.

But I suspect you and I would agree that quality and resilience of software-based systems does not come cheap or easy. It requires strategic commitment by the organisation, it requires a lot of effort from designers, testers, and managers, and it requires money. Too many organisations have balked at those requirements, and as a result they have fragile systems.

Add the NOTAM system to the case studies of Southwest’s crew scheduling system, the SolarWinds Orion software supply chain, and many many more.

1 reply
January 2023

Mike_S

The NOTAM system was finally overrun by 5G interference entries… LOL

January 2023 ▶ mgiacomet

bellasassy50

Yeah, What is heck is the problem with the USA, PC for NOtice T AirMen is changed because of some crap about equality… about as broken as their democracy - what a joke all round.

January 2023 ▶ Jim_DeLaHunt

NewUserName

“Destroying any chance” is admittedly a bit hyperbolic, but the destruction of a proper market in operating systems is likely costing the customers more than Linux will ever save them.
Don’t even get me started on socialized medicine. I had a very bad outcome precisely due to classic central command issues and there was no chance of relief.
I’ve worked with government and corporate customers and they can make a lot of the same mistakes as well as different ones.
It will be interesting to hear what happened if we ever get close to the real story.

January 2023 ▶ vince

bellasassy50

Hope you aren’t a pilot! That would make you an irresponsible, dangerous and illegal operator.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ vince

KirkW

“Nobody reads the darn things anyway.“

Well, that explains all the idiots blundering through TFRs….

2 replies
January 2023 ▶ rekabr52

KirkW

“ “currently there is no evidence.” It happened last night and this is just a tad premature.”

What’s premature about saying “currently”? At the time she made the statement they didn’t have any evidence of a hack by bad actors. She didn’t say that we weren’t hacked, she simply said there’s no evidence of it yet.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ HB1

pilotmww

What I want to know is who was the idiot at the FAA who decided to issue a ground stop in the first place. If the airlines felt they needed to stop flying then that is their choice. I flew a trip this morning after GA stop was discontinued. Some support from my company along with a couple of phone calls to confirm any destination issues and away I went.

January 2023 ▶ Jim_DeLaHunt

rick223344

Jim D.: Yes sir! I think you are correct. I does make me wonder though, if the outage occurred yesterday, Jan 10 at 3:28 pm EST, why did it take so long to implement a nationwide ground stop?

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ rick223344

rick223344

Also, just FYI, I see the original AVWEB article has been edited to to remove the original reference to the Jan 10 date. The title now adds the word ‘UPDATED’. I guess the author could have been confused by the wording as well.

January 2023

frank.tino

NOTAMs communicate information concerning the rules and regulations that govern flight operations, the use of navigation facilities, and designation of that airspace in which the rules and regulations apply.

(c) When a NOTAM has been issued under this section, no person may operate an aircraft, or other device governed by the regulation concerned, within the designated airspace except in accordance with the authorizations, terms, and conditions prescribed in the regulation covered by the NOTAM.

§ 91.139 Emergency air traffic rules.
(a) This section prescribes a process for utilizing Notices to Airmen (NOTAMs) to advise of the issuance and operations under emergency air traffic rules and regulations and designates the official who is authorized to issue NOTAMs on behalf of the Administrator in certain matters under this section.

91.103 Preflight action. Each pilot in command shall, before beginning a flight, become familiar with all available information concerning that flight.

There have been several NTSB decisions in the past decade(s) stating that just because the PIC couldn’t access “it”, didn’t relinquish responsibility of the PIC to still ‘obtain’-ALL information concerning that flight before commencing upon that flight. That information includes NAV aid outages, runway lighting, TFR’s, etc.
AC 91-92 - Pilot’s Guide to a Preflight Briefing
https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/advisory_circulars/index.cfm/go/document.information/documentID/1036892

January 2023

frank.tino

7.4.1.8 NOTAMs. Check NOTAM information affecting the flight. This includes:
• Domestic NOTAMs.
• International NOTAMs (when flight extends beyond U.S. airspace).
• Special Use Airspace (SUA) NOTAMs (e.g., restricted areas, aerial
refueling, night vision goggles (NVG) operations, military operations
areas, military training routes, and warning areas).
• NOTAMs for field conditions (FICON).

January 2023 ▶ pilotmww

Brad_Luepke

“Inexcusable” is rather harsh. Everyone wants everything to work flawlessly all the time, but that is most certainly unrealistic. And as far as thinking a ground stop is overkill (comparing NOTAMS to cloud cover), NOTAMS are a key component to making the US aviation system as safe as possible. While these things are certainly an interruption, safety must be kept as the first priority. Certainly over “convenience”.

2 replies
January 2023

Larry_S

If the FAA couldn’t easily fix the LODA issue which THEY caused by having the Administrator merely wave his magic twanger, what makes anyone think that a more serious issue like this could be fixed or prevented in the first place? Having to have the Congress include fixing it in a Bill on a totally unrelated subject is tantamount to criminality.

Computers are nice until they don’t work. I’ve been in FL when the power was out for days and stores couldn’t deal with figuring out how to sell the stuff they had in the store manually.

Heaven help us all.

1 reply
January 2023

frank.tino

The FAA said the crippling delays that affected thousands of flights appears to have been caused by a problem with a corrupted file in the Notice to Airmen (NOTAM) computer system, which sends pilots vital information they are required to obtain in order to fly.

A corrupted file affected both the primary and backup system, a senior government official said Wednesday evening, adding that officials continue to investigate.

“The FAA is continuing a thorough review to determine the root cause of the Notice to Air Missions (NOTAM) system outage,” the agency said in a statement. “Our preliminary work has traced the outage to a damaged database file. At this time, there is no evidence of a cyber-attack.”

“One of the questions we need to look at right now, and one of the things I’m asking from the FAA, is what’s the state of the art in this form of message traffic?”. "And again, how is it possible for there to be this level of disruption?” stated Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg.

January 2023 ▶ Brad_Luepke

pilotmww

With respect, baloney! Sorry about being direct, today’s ground stop was ridiculous. I am a pt 135 pilot who flew a trip after the GA part of the ground stop was ended. There are ways around this “notam outage” that may involve more work but are not unsafe. I would tell that to any FAA official, or any body else who would question my departure. I stand by my original comments!

January 2023 ▶ KirkW

bellasassy50

Exactly… so unfortunate that we have so many damn idiots with pilots licenses… it’s a bloody disaster that they hand them out like they do!

January 2023 ▶ KirkW

gmbfly98

Of course, TFRs are generally not in the NOTAM system, but in a completely different system

1 reply
January 2023

Tom_Smythe

Outage was caused by a “corrupted” file in the Database? Really? Files don’t just “corrupt” themselves. Something happened. A hardware failure (did the array behind the DB have a problem and lost data?), a transfer failure (someone uploaded a file and no one bothered to compare the checksum against it to ensure it’s integrity?), an approved change (the admins incorporated design changes into the database which caused a slow-down after dropping indexes which should have remained active - this can slow things down considerably and the recover would require rebuilding indexes, slowing things down considerably during rebuild), and unapproved change where someone entered the wrong commands on the wrong system (I thought I was on the development box and wiped out a bunch of production files - let’s try restoring them one-by-one and see if we can cover our butts!), or outright intentional sabotage (most cyber attacks come from within the organization).

We should be asking how it was corrupted so we can implement steps to ensure it never happens again.

January 2023

Kthom_441

A corrupted single file brought down the system and stopped US aviation? Not a very robust system architecture. Get ready for the next breakage while the politicians begin the finger pointing.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ Kthom_441

Arthur_Foyt

I do not care the “why” a file was corrupted (terrorism, accident, etc) I care that the whole system could be downed by a single point of failure. The buck stops with the administraton, otherwise the FAA needs to change it’s name to FA.

1 reply
January 2023 ▶ Arthur_Foyt

gretna.bear

“The buck stops with the administraton” thus what outcome do you prefer ?

January 2023

J_Earnie

So a government agency, FAA, causes a massive, nationwide airline delay, and its parent, DOT, fines the airlines for the delay that its incompetence caused. Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren, Richard Blumenthal, want to make the fine timetable even shorter.

Only Government could do something like this.

January 2023 ▶ rick223344

J_Earnie

So, was this advisory issued through the NOTAM system that wasn’t working? Government at it’s finest.

January 2023 ▶ Brad_Luepke

J_Earnie

The NOTAMS were still available, already downloaded in multiple planning systems. New NOTAMs weren’t loading, but flights could safely be flown with updates via ATIS, over the radio, and delaying the execution of the underlying work or outages for that day. Don’t let the “Men and equipment working near runways starry mowing the grass until the issue was resolved”.

1 reply
January 2023

J_Earnie

The NOTAM system and policy has been overdue for decades for reform. A temporary, 300 foot crane working 9.6 miles from the airport doesn’t need to be cluttering the system. It’s common to get a 20’ long print out that had to be carried for regulatory reasons, even when the flight plan is available electronically.

https://ops.group/blog/the-problem-of-bullshit-notams/

January 2023

cujet

I don’t believe the FAA has the authority to regulate non commercial aviation. Remember, the FAA is an arm of the Executive branch of government, and derives it’s Constitutional authority from the so called “interstate commerce clause” Our non commercial GA flight was grounded needlessly, and without proper authority. There was no emergency, and all the information for the flight was already known.

January 2023

hunters.email

Was the NOTAM system/function outsourced to the lowest bidder in 2005?

January 2023 ▶ KirkW

rekabr52

I personally have no faith or trust in anything which comes from this “administration.” “Tad premature” and “currently” because these people shoot first and think later, maybe.

January 2023

Richard_G

Odd… this system wasn’t considered ‘mission critical’… no back systems. The DATA is backed up, but there is no standby system as there is for RADAR, Comm, etc…
Instant NOTAMS were not the norm until recently. Now they are critical for any IFR flight.

1 reply
January 2023

rick.freeman100

The “corrupted” file was titled “NOTICE_TO_AIRMEN.dbs”. The updated front end software called for a file named “NOTICE_TO_AIR_MISSION.dbs”. In other words, it wasn’t “corrupt”, just woke. :smiley:

January 2023 ▶ bellasassy50

bserra

I completely agree with You, Mr. Muz W and Mr. Kirk E…

January 2023 ▶ gmbfly98

bellasassy50

comment was about NOTAM’s in general… just btw :wink: