Tom_Waarne
Not much oomph with 4 aboard. This is really a 21/2 person aircraft and much different from the fixed gear 180 Cherokee.
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Not much oomph with 4 aboard. This is really a 21/2 person aircraft and much different from the fixed gear 180 Cherokee.
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Such a waste. History keeps repeating itself, and needlessly.
This accident will likely have a negative impact on the school’s aviation program and perhaps other school programs add well.
Not far from where I live a father (a pilot) watched his 3 sons (pilots) attempt a takeoff from a private strip (PA-28R). Sadly all 3 sons perished in front of him that day.
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I can’t even imagine, and I just don’t get it. Even with CFI on board. My heart and thoughts are for sure with this family this morning. Regards the aircraft…the group flew to one place for brunch…so the only thing that could have changed was fuel loading, or lack of. Regardless, it’s just tragic for GA, the families and the school. I’m very sorry for the loss.
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What a thoughtless response. You have no idea who this person was or their experience and qualifications. It takes less effort to not be a jerk, just don’t say anything.
What’s changed from when they arrived is the fact they were departing — a completely different experience. They were heavily loaded, inexperienced, and no doubt nervous. The assumption here is that they hit trees at the end of that narrow runway, but it’s just as likely they horsed it off too early and veered into trees along the side because they were airborne below VMC. In that situation you can get a control reversal where trying to stay away from the trees actually makes it worse. Imagine their realization. What would you do?
A long paved runway with no obstructions in the cool of the morning, yea, sure. A 2,990’ turf strip with trees at each end in the warm afternoon? Nope.
Whilst a “Doolittle” takeoff might just barely have succeeded, it’s not something you risk without extensive training and not something you even try from a normal GA safety aspect.
My grandmother used to repeat the old adage that “there are old pilots and bold pilots, but no old, bold pilots”. One of the most difficult yet imperative “skills” to have as an aviator is the ability to just say no, not today. A secondary skill is to avoid being a Monday morning quarterback. A tragic accident indeed.
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Tragic and appears with info so far to be totally preventable accident. Looked up the CFI on FAA Airman Registry. Commercial - ASEL/AMEL Instrument, CFI ASEL/AMEL/Instrument, Ground Instructor Advanced/Instrument, A&P/IA. Not a newbie airman .
I’ve owned a PA-28-140 with the 30’ wing and a similar PA-28-180. Neither airplane is really a four place airplane even under normal conditions. The only thing those airplanes do good is come down out of the sky. An even worse airplane I owned was an AA-1A … THAT was a 1/2 person airplane. 
I once took off in the 180hp PA-28 at the 9,000’ Grand Canyon airport with 2 aboard and had a heck of a time trying to climb out of ground effect. Recently, I had to decide whether to sell the 140 or a 172 I’ve owned a long time … I sold the 140 for this reason. I once took off with four adults on a hot summer day at Edwards AFB and the 172 performed just fine, by comparison. Problem is, ya gotta fight that airplane to stop flying, by comparison.
Can’t say if density altitude had a hand in this tragedy but I’d bet that it did? RIP.
I used to own an old Beech Sundowner with the 160 hp engine. While not the same, it was similar in performance and was definitely a 3 person (max) airplane. I took off from Farmington, New Mexico, one time on a hot summer day with just me (170 lbs.), full fuel and maybe 50 pounds of junk and the same thing happened. It would take off, but not climb out of ground effect. Fortunately, the Farmington airport sits on top of a mesa so there were no trees or hills in the way. When I flew off the end of the mesa, I dropped about 50 feet and the plane finally started climbing. I would never have even considered flying out of a short grass strip with any load on board. A tragic outcome in this case. My condolences to the families.
Quoted above comment: “Regards the aircraft…the group flew to one place for brunch…so the only thing that could have changed was fuel loading…”
Lotsa factors likely changed!! The changes were likely temperature (density Altitude), wind direction (headwind vs tailwind components (potentially a big deal!), field condition (grass - dry or wet/short or tall/dense or sparse/or smooth vs rough/paved vs grass), field elevation (higher vs lower), runway slope (level vs up hill or down hill), runway length (obstacles vs open fields) surrounding terrain, and etc. All were potentially big deals that could individually and collectively have a profound impact on performance compared to the airport the four departed from… Very sad event.
The hershey bar wing Pipers are not great performers at high density altitudes. That was not the case here. High temp today at BTV 71 degrees. Basin Harbor is near sea level. Takeoff distance for a PA28R 180 on standard day at gross is 1240’ to clear a 50’ obstacle. This was not a runway environment accident. No witnesses. Airplane reported overdue at home base. Aircraft not located until approximately 12 hours after departure. Some distance east of runway indicates they had likely already turned on course.
I helped dismantle a crashed PA28-235. Four heavy people and full fuel.They landed on the wrong side of a stone fence at the end of a private strip. One main tank hit a boulder that flattened the tank to the main spar. No fire, no injuries. These are very crashworthy airplanes. Way better than most comparable sheet metal airplanes . However one cannot expect to survive a spin into the ground.
Weight: Basin Harbor has no fuel so likely 100# plus down from full tanks. Standard useful load is 1120#, so even if this was a heavier than standard airplane they would have been below gross with four 170# people.
I take it you aren’t a CFI, based on that response. Yes, there are CFIs out there who speed through the ratings and manage to find lenient DPEs, but that’s true for pilots of all ratings.
There are some circumstances where if the CFI is a little less attentive than they should be (and sometimes the difference between “attentive enough” and “not attentive enough” is on the order of seconds), the situation can quickly devolve into one where there isn’t enough time to react.
Add in the pressure of having the student and parent on board and it’s understandable how it’s possible the instructor may have overlooked some preflight planning and let the situation go just a little too far before there was adequate time to correct. It also could have just been a “simple” case of poor airmanship, but again, this affects all pilots.
I was incorrect on the distance. Flight plan at 140 kts which is probably high, is one hour from Basin Harbor to Windham CT. So approx 40 gallons departing.
Once again this was not a runway environment accident.
Apples to Oranges but Max Conrad flew a Commanche 180 nonstop from Casablanca to El Paso, a world record at the time. The takeoff was an obscene number over gross.
This is far more likely to be an engine failure some distance from the airport possibly followed by a loss of control in an attempted return to the airport.
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Or simply a wet/soft turf runway that was more drag than his planned safety factor.
I flew my Maule MX-7-180 into and out of Basin Harbor Club’s grass strip in 2007. I landed there in the afternoon on a Fall day with a cool temperature. I took off in the morning with a cool temperature. Density altitude wasn’t a factor since the elevation is near sea level. The grass is kept mowed so drag shouldn’t have been a problem. The runway is long and wide (for a Maule). However, there were thousands of seagulls on the runway. The guy mowing the grass scared them away long enough for me to take off but they came right back afterward.
The majority of accidents share a common contributing factor: Rushing and/or distraction. Having a family member along can be a huge distraction for a student pilot and should be recognized as such and allowance made for it. We may never know the definitive cause of this accident, but when things are “almost routine” that’s when you need to pay special attention.
Big girls need love too. However, don’t try to get a 160 warrior off the ground with full fuel, a hot humid day, and a short grass strip, with said lady in the seat next to you.
It can be done, i am living proof of that, but i don’t recommend it. You might not get another chance to repeat the endeavor…
I took off in my Cherokee 160 with 4 200+ pound guys at 5500 feet DA and purposely used up most of the 3600 foot runway flat climb to about 1800 ft and did a slow circuit of Clear Lake, CA. Of course I had less than half fuel.
“Accident”? This was no accident…
Your grandmother never heard of Chuck Yeager?
No one saw the takeoff and the accident airplane/crash cite was not found until 12 hours after departure??? And NO post crash fire??? No smoke column??? Could the plane have been missing something like fuel? Usually when there is no post crash fire, there is a reason. Just saying from 45 years of flying.
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Post crash fires are somewhat rare in small airplanes. Some make and models have significantly above average post crash fire history. Somewhat contrary to most beliefs some of the fuselage tank airplanes such as Piper J3 and Aeronca 7AC have lower percentages of post crash fires than wing tank airplanes.
Once again this was not a runway environment accident. The location is stated as 1200 yards east of the runway and estimated 600’ north of the approach end of runway 2. Departure was likely on runway 20.
There had been some rain but photos show vehicles in a farm field near the accident site.
This was not a high density altitude situation. Wind and turbulence may have been a factor.
This was not a Cherokee 140, 160 or 180. All Arrows have constant speed props which significantly improves acceleration compared to the Cherokee 180 with same 180 hp engine.
There is another possibility that I consider remote but must be considered. AD for cracked wing spars on this and other Cherokee series. A fatal crash in FL of an Arrow where the spar failed and the wing came off. The wing in VT accident is separated from the fuselage and laying in front of the fuselage.
I’ve been in and out of Basin Harbor in a 180HP Sundowner, a Sierra, and a Cessna150. It’s not a confidence inspiring strip, as it often feels soggy and soft when everything else is dry. None of those planes achieved anything like Flight Manual performance on takeoff. After the first time I used soft field technique for all takeoffs. I’m no fan of the “Hershey Bar” tribe and wouldn’t take one in there unless solo and light on fuel. Certainly not with 3 3/4 adults and only a little over an hour out of full tanks. The 200HP long wing Arrow does a little better, still not my cup of tea. I hypothesize an early over-rotation without a soft field flap setting and a sub Vx climbout, getting on the backside of the power curve (bad place for hershey bars) with predictable results.