system

My company has advised our crews to carry extra fuel when possible to help deal with some of the ATC outages. One of our jets had to fly at 9000ft tower to tower through Indy center’s airspace going south when they shut down for virus cleaning. I have no problem using VFR procedures but pt135 ops specs and pt 25 airplanes and jets usually not allowed to fly enroute VFR. I don’t think pt121 is allowed enroute VFR either. And the lack of any comments to the AOPA request for the FAA to make accommodations for pilot training expiration dates makes you wonder. If they don’t approve AOPA’s request it could eventually shut down most IFR operations without the government doing anything.

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system

My thanks to all those ATC controllers for continuing to keep those facilities operating!

system

That suspends the fuel conservation program, or so it would seem. You’re right about 121 jets, plus ops specs notwithstanding, no one can go into Class A airspace unless IFR. Part 25 jets that are operated under Part 91 only are free to operate VFR below Class A airspace. ATC will likely only get worse until this crisis has abated.

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system

There can be IFR flight with outages. I’ve had flights (IFR) where ATC told me “we’re going to lose contact with you, both radio and radar, for the next ten or fifteen minutes. Call us again on this frequency after you cross the outage.”

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system

I wonder if they could field the AWACS or Hawkeye planes to help control traffic on an emergency basis?

tabsaweigh

Just a comment: a facility declaring ATC Zero does not cause the airspace class to change. If it was Class C before, it remains Class C, just with some published services unavailable. We cannot alter an airspace designation via NOTAM. Airspace definitions are published, and what is published cannot be altered. If the impacted facility is not a 24/7 operation, then the airspace class changes at whatever time it is published to change.

This is something that we even have to explain to the facilities, as many thought the same way and had such language in their ATC Zero plan. If a Class B airport (LAX, SEA, ORD, etc.) goes ATC Zero, the airspace remains Class B, and the facility that assumes control (usually an overlying TRACON) will provide Class B services to the extent possible. Obviously, the TRACON can’t control ground movements.

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tabsaweigh

That’s just normal coverage issues, and known areas with lack of coverage. I had that all the time on Victor-2 between Seattle and Ellensburg with aircraft below 10,000’. The facility is still operational, knows about your flight, and has a reasonable idea where you are. Not the same as an ATC Zero event.

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system

I completely agree with Dan R on this. Problem now is that various government (federal and state) entities are doing things that they do not have the constitutional authority for and with most courts shutting down challenging a lot of these decisions is a little difficult.

system

Never intended to include class A airspace. Was just talking about airspace between 10000 to 17500ft.

system

“Think about taxiing out for takeoff and crossing several big runways with no ground control. (“Ummm … you’re sure this is OK?”)”
When I was learning to drive (was it really 55. years ago?), my father taught me, when at a stop sign about to turn left onto a busy street, look both ways 3 times, then “Go!” (Which I still do, By the way). I imagine the same applies only now looking in 3 dimensions: left, right, left up, right up, x 3 then throttle in and get it done!

system

Lose weather information and some airports revert to Class G in some cases.

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tabsaweigh

Nope. Nothing can change an airspace designation other than official rulemaking. NOTAMs cannot alter an airspace class. Now if the published information for a specific airspace includes such language (and I know of none, but I don’t know the all…), then that could be possible.

Yes, I work for the FAA, and have worked in the airspace office. I am a national expert on ATC Contingency planning.

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system

Please clarify why the Bradley FSDO told an assembled multitude that, when BDL’s radar goes out of service, their Class C airspace - and its requirements - go away, too. Thanks.

system

KPSP is a part time Class D airport. My home base for many years. It is equipped with ASOS, ATIS and it’s in the METAR/TAF system. The Control Tower’s closing statement, or ATIS, reads that the tower is closed and advises that the CT frequency converts to CTAF. The ASOS minute weather transmits but it’s fixed to the closing time WX report not cycling to minute WX transmissions. I’m not sure why the ASOS minute WX is disabled but it leads to negative official WX thus the conversion to Class G after the CT closes. I kinda understand this.

Then, researching this a bit more, I find that the current KPSP directive from JO 7400.11D converts, after normal operations, to Class E not Class G. Interesting!

Then there’s KTRM, my present home airport, a Class E Surface Area with an AO2 ASOS, meaning an official weather source. Could you explain what to expect if the ASOS were to be under mx or out of order? Will KTRM operations be under Class E or Class G airspace regs? Or is it kinda like KPSP?

Karrpilot

Sounds to me like he wanted to commit suicide. It’s too bad that he went about an expensive way to do it. Luckily no one else was involved, and he didn’t take anyone else with him.

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pstout

Fool should have attempted to land at MC chord AFB and taken the consequences, it was dumb all the way around. The plane would have been likely scrapped after all the loops and rolls from over stress.

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keith

Today many people try to take others with them.

Decades ago there was at least one case of a fussed airport/airline employee crashing a plane with pilots and pax on board.

I forget what the motive of the perp at SEATAC was estimated to be.

keith

F-15s alerted him I presume.

(Concerning aspect is that once again no fighter jets near Seattle area airports.
Recall same when a POTUS airplane was at Boeing field during a visit and a small airplane blundered into the restricted area.)

Steve_Miller

My aerobatic practice area is one island over (McNeil rather than Ketron, where he crashed). I remember hearing the sonic boom of the F-15s coming up from Portland.

I am somewhat surprised the Navy doesn’t participate in this stuff–they have a huge base on Whidbey chock full of F-18s (just check out Google Earth for the amazing number of them), not 30 miles north of Seattle.

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ag4n6

This is truly one of the most bazaar episodes in all of aviation history. AVWEB reported on it at the time and it seemed to be something out of a cheap, technology devoid TV episode plot, the story, not the AVWEB report.

keith

IIRC he lost it in maneuvering, though may have been suicidal anyway.

(Many pilot suicides over the years.)

tabsaweigh

KOIN is a Portland OR TV station, not WA.

tabsaweigh

When you listen to the audio, he had no intention of landing anywhere. He gave no indication of anything other than crashing when he was finished.

tabsaweigh

Homeland Security is Air Force/Air National Guard. The navy doesn’t get involved with this. They used to maintain a scramble team at McChord AFB, just south of Seattle. I’m sure it was cost cutting to use the Portland ANG at PDX as the scramble base.

gahorn146ys

Theft is criminal. We pay the price in increased insurance and ticket costs for his act…not to mention the public cost of operating those F15s. Airport security was certainly lax.