Continue Discussion - visit the forum 18 replies
June 2019

system

Ethiopian Airlines is noted for its’ training program.
You cannot train for things that you don’t know about; the MCAS was not disclosed.
Air Canada also has a MAX simulator; no use without proper programming based on actual systems.
One root cause of the MAX issue is how the stick force gradient problem was dealt with.
When you add area forward, you must add area aft; when that area is horizontal, the larger and further forward nacelles, horizontal area needed to be added aft; a larger stabiliser.
That is the aerodynamic solution; what one would expect as a proper “Fix”.
If a mechanical solution was desired, a Stick Pusher would be the norm, not a system which automatically runs the trim to the limit, over-riding the elevator power.

1 reply
June 2019

system

Seriously? First, the one of the basic rules for flying an aircraft in an emergency is: Fly the Aircraft. The power remained in climb power throughout the emergency all the way until it crashed going well over VMO. The faster the aircraft flew , the more down nose pressure was exerted on the stabilizer. They clearly had no sense of this basic fact of how the stab trim works. Clearly as they exceeded VMO, a high speed stall was not remotely a possibility. With the flaps out on takeoff and the speed rapidly increasing, a slow sped stall was not remotely a possibility. Clearly they had no knowledge of the concept of pitch, power and airspeed as they relate to the possibility of a stall. They also had no knowledge of the well know concept of slowing things down when you have an emergency going on. If they had kept the flaps in the takeoff setting and reduced power, MCAS would never had engaged in the first place. Additionally, a slower speed would have provided the chance to handle the stab trim forces. I repeat they never reduced the power from normal climb power, which ultimately made the aircraft uncontrollable.
Second, they failed to follow the procedure outlined in the Boeing update to all Max operators after the first crash. They finally turned the the stab trim switches to cutoff, as called out in the Boeing procedure. But because the low time co-pilot moved the manual trim switches in the wrong direction, the captain elected to reengage the stab trim cutoff switches to on. This set the stage for the stab trim to move to a position, whose force could not be physically overcome because of the ever increasing airspeed, as a result of the fact the power was never reduced.
Obviously Boeing screwed up big time by designing a safety system with a single point of failure, with the system totally dependent upon a single AOA prob. With no backup and a comparator system with the right AOA, this was an accident waiting to happen. Also by making a warning light/system an expensive option, they removed another backup to a single point of failure of a so-called safety system. Additionally, they went from a modest movement of the stab trim with a MCAS engagement to a aggressive movement, which could quickly make a bad situation uncontrollable if certain basic common sense rules for dealing with an emergency were not followed.
All the points that Carey raised in his testimony are fair points to consider, however in the end it was a poorly designed system and a lack of basic flying knowledge that ultimately led to these deadly accidents.

Frank
As a point of reference to my experience to make the above comments, I have forty-nine years of safe flying, thirty-six years of Navy and airline flying with 20,500 plus flight hours.

June 2019 ▶ system

system

I disagree.
EVERYONE knew about about MCAS auto-trim after the first crash.
There is no reason why Ethiopian pilots were not aware of trim issues some 5 months later.
I’m just a GA pilot and I read up on the symptoms and solutions.
I guarantee that if I was a real pilot and my butt was in the left seat of a 737 MAX that I would have investigated and worked out “what ifs” in case I felt the trim shoving the plane where I did not want it!

June 2019

system

A large load of dangerous nonsense from someone who ought to know better.

“…should a ‘federated’ system, which may lead to an unrecoverable event, ever be certified by the FAA?”
Got a yaw damper? It’s federated.
Does your autopilot-cum-flight-control-system have “modes?” It’s federated.
Does your automation allow real-time participation of human pilots? It’s federated.
The head of a pilots union should be careful what he asks for.

“…should an FAA aircraft certification—such as a 737 designation from 1967— have a date for termination or sunset?”
Spoken like someone who fully expects to retire every aircraft in the civil fleet, within 20 years of certification. That’s not the way the real world works. Ask any DC-3 pilot.

In my worthless opinion, Boeing’s MCAS is a crappy kludge. But ANY rated pilot should be able to cope with a runaway trim event. Period. All publicly available evidence shows that four of them apparently couldn’t - because they clearly didn’t.

Carey isn’t being helpful. Too bad.

-YARS

May 2022

system

15 years ago the FAA required me to retire at age 60. Then magically, bush junior, signs Senate Bill S-65 to rescind the age 60 retirement mandate on 13 Dec, 2007. What study was made to determine it was now safe to fly till 65? What study has been done to increase that to 67-68?

The airlines can reduce the demand for their product by raising fares hence balancing available pilot supply with a reduced flight schedule. This may also decrease the offensive behavior by those that should be shuttled around on a bus, train or cattle trailer.

1 reply
May 2022

system

Emphasis on New-Starts in Aviation?

May 2022

system

I don’t like the idea of putting an arbitrary age limit for pt121 flying. It sets a precedent that some politicians have tried to apply to pt135 and pt91K ops as well. On the other hand the union has a valid point as far as misuse and mismanagement of taxpayer dollars given to the airlines during the pandemic in the past 2 years. That money was supposed to be used to help avoid the lack of pilots and other employees when the pandemic restrictions ended, not line management’s pockets.

May 2022

system

Back in the day I had to retire from British Airways at 55. As a current B747-400 captain I next moved to SIA as a line Captain same type. Their retirement age was 60, so returned to the UK after 5 happy years in Singapore as a training captain for EasyJet on the 737-300 & - 700NG. At age 63 went to Boeing Seattle to fly the acceptance airtest on a new 737 and then ferry it to London Luton. My age would have prevented a line flight for a USA airline, but an airtest and ferry flight was considered safe, although somewhat more stressful than a comfortable line sector, age should not be a barrier, lack of fitness and or proficiency should.

May 2022

system

I remember when the first age extension passed and for awhile it was not allowed to have more than one over 60 guy on the flight deck at a time. For the most part there was nothing wrong with the older pilots. I did fly once with an over 60 Captain that left the turn signal on all the way across the Atlantic though…………

May 2022

system

The FAA has, for decades, had the age 56 mandatory retirement requirement for air traffic controllers in spite of controller shortages. Many controllers, just like pilots, still have the skills and knowledge to continue working well past 56 and could have alleviated staffing issues across the country. NATCA, the union representing all FAA controllers, has fought every attempt at changing this mandatory retirement every time. Just like the ALPA.

Unions usually are controlled, or “influenced”, by the younger members. To any union, helping members increase seniority by artificially removing the “top” of the seniority pyramid is a win. If it also creates or maintains a “shortage” of workers, so much the better, as that increases the leverage of the Union.

Unions represent their members. Like the companies they negotiate with, they are not interested in what is good for the public in general, or fair for all parties, or what is the right thing to do. Their view will always reflect what is best for the Union. Their opinion, while obviously important, will always represent only one side of an important and complex issue. Ironically, the ALPA, NATCA, and all other unions, have the same ultimate goal as the companies they negotiate with; to gain as much power as they possibly can. Just the nature of the beast.

May 2022

system

Any changes should add months, not years, at a time. Simply doing that solves much of the problems, and the arguments. Of course, it adds work for bureaucrats, but it should reduce their risk as well.

As far as I can tell, one group who ought to have less input is a union. If the union representatives are not doing what they think benefits the pilots, then they are corrupt, and ought to be ignored. If they are speaking on behalf of pilots, then they are biased, and ought to be heard with a skeptical ear. Of course, we should hear from pilots speaking in their capacity as experts, not employees or representatives of labor groups, as well as doctors and others.

We should also be mostly concerned with safety and best policies for all times. We currently have high fuel prices and lack of supply because factions against the use of petroleum, romantics, and corrupt politicians argue against best policies because they will not solve the current crisis. We are, of course, hearing suggestions for such policies rejected during the last dozen fuel crises. So, anyone saying raising the age limit won’t help the current shortage is suspect. Anyone saying raising the limit should not be done because it won’t solve the current shortage should be sidelined from the conversation having shown their lack of character.

May 2022

system

ALPA is nothing but a “PITA” that takes member money with not much in return. Younger pilots want older pilots gone so they can advance. They are stupid and don’t realize that one day they will be older and have some younger guy wanting them gone.
Pilots subject to mandatory age-related retirement should also be qualified to receive full SOC SEC benefits when they are forced to retire by Government mandate. How in the world are they supposed to live without a job that was taken away by age discrimination?

May 2022

system

“The rest of the world is sticking with 65”; not true; Canada, among other countries with an excellent safety record, has no mandatory retirement age for pilots.
The original age 60 retirement age was bogus; cooked up to get rid of some people.
When ICAO looked at reality, they studied the medical situations of thousands of pilots, and could find no reason for an arbitrary age.
The “Over/Under” rule was brought in to mollify the doubters, and was supposed to go away with any arbitrary age. Without notice, ICAO made a recommendation counter to their medical findings, and some countries accepted it.
In the US, Congress got into something they have no knowledge of and made 65 mandatory.
There is no reason for an arbitrary retirement age; I was forced out at 60, went on to fly difficult missions in war zones, then do Line Indoctrination on a bizjet.
Still competent long after 65. Don’t wear glasses or take any medication!
Those in my union, who claimed that “no-one should fly past 60”, are all doing so happily, having leapt ahead in seniority by forcing others out; ALPA is no different and should be ashamed!

May 2022

system

As a 20k hr 121 Capt with a degree in aeronautical engineering and a background testing USAF fighters, I’ll be told to go home based on a birthday. I’ve never had a FAA violation. I’ve never had an incident or accident. Never had any medical issues. Yet the surgeon that will operate on your brain can work indefinitely. Or the judge that has the authority to put someone to death, no mandatory retirement age. As an engineer I’m very numbers oriented. I would love to see the data indicating the increase in incident, accident, violation rate for those over 60 as compared to those under 30. You will never see this data from those pushing to hold the age at 65 because those violations incidents & accidents are far far greater amongst the inexperienced pilots. Most only have a high school education as compared to those that got into the industry when a 4 yr degree was required.
If this was about safety they’d change the EKG the a stress test & add an EEG (electroencephalogram). And how about referencing BMI to a pilot’s health. This all will never happen. Because although it would clear many to continue past 65, close to 20 percent of the pilots would lose their medical.
That makes you feel good about being in the back of an airplane. Safety my …

1 reply
May 2022

system

One other note. The vast number of ALPA pilots pound the chest about how conservative their values are. Good strong republicans. Yet the republican party’s fiscal conservatism includes support for lower taxes, free market capitalism, deregulation of corporations, and restrictions on labor unions. I think that is the very definition of hypocrisy.

May 2022 ▶ system

system

And apparently a man who is 108 can serve as President…mental acuity not a required qualification…

May 2022

system

The pilot shortage won’t last long. The coming recession (depression?) will take care of that.

May 2022 ▶ system

system

Airlines have already adjusted prices. 3 years ago I flew across the country for about $250. Now a similar flight will cost me over $800.